Death by Suicide

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Entertained living or

Jay: 00:00:19

welcome to this week's edition of taboo.

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Talk with Jay louder today, we have a, a very special.

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that has an amazing story.

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She's having a huge impact on a lot of people.

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She's written an incredible book, has another book coming out and she and

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her boys have gone through something that a lot of people would not have

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expected in lieu of the, the calling in profession that her husband had.

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And man, just thank God for her and, and how she's being used.

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Kayla, welcome to today's podcast.

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Jay.

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Thanks so much for having me.

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It's an honor to be here.

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Well, I just love the fact that, I mean, I, I'm not, I'm not gonna say in

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some ways I, I do relate because obviously I have battled a similar struggle, but

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in other ways I don't relate because the pain that the, the difficulty that

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you've gone through is just unimaginable.

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And sadly, there are people all over the world that, that, that.

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That are, or that will be going through some of the same things

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that you have gone through.

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And I've met them all over the world because of telling my own story.

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It's a common denominator of something that, that I, I hear often

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I'm sure that many of our listeners will be familiar with your name.

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Some of 'em I'm sure have read your book, which I'll be talking about

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later on in this podcast, but Kayla, if you would, rather than me giving

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you the lengthy introduction and, and telling your story, if you.

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Just to kind of set the table for our listeners.

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Would you kind of tell them a little bit just about you about your family

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and and then we'll kind of move on from.

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Sure.

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So I am a former pastor's wife.

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My husband, Andrew led our church inland church.

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For almost four years, his dad had started the church when he was three

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years old, he had grown up in it.

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He was a PK.

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He loved it.

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He felt called to ministry in college.

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We met and fell in love.

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Quickly in college were married.

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Super young.

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I was 21.

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He was 22, started a family right away and jumped right into ministry.

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And it was a, it was a rough go from the beginning about a year into our marriage.

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His dad was diagnosed with leukemia and it really rattled our

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church community and rattled our.

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Family.

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And my husband stepped up to the plate in a million different ways.

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And throughout the four year journey of leukemia, he was eventually handed the

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Baton of leadership and became the lead pastor of the church at a very young age.

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I think he was like 26 years old and we were starting a family.

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We had two boys at the time and a third boy on the way.

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So life at home was full life at work was very full.

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And then just a few months later that year in 2015, In October of

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two 15, and his dad passed away and Andrew's heart was for the church.

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He loved the church so much.

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He felt compelled to lead them through his grief, through their grief.

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So kinda pushed his grief to the wayside and returned just a few weeks later.

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And.

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An incredible series on heaven.

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And I just sat back in amazement of him.

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You know, my, my role was to support him and to love him

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and to care for our family.

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I was a be at home mom, caring for our three little boys and

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I loved being a pastor's wife, like my identity and my life was.

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So wrapped up in who he was and supporting him and supporting

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our church in every way possible.

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And I loved my life.

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I had a beautiful, amazing, meaningful life.

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And then in the fall of.

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Things started to shift.

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It been a few years since his dad passed away and Andrew just started to burn out.

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It started with panic attacks.

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He was having panic attacks about two to three a week.

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Very debilitating, very, it would take over his entire body

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mostly when he was trying to go.

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Sleep.

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And at first we thought it was a health issue.

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We thought maybe it was a thyroid issue.

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Maybe he could just get some medication.

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It would make the panic attacks go away.

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And so we were seeing doctors doing blood work, taking the next right steps and

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the panic attacks continued to get worse.

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And they got so bad that he ended up in the hospital and it was

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then that our church staff and our leadership team and our family

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decided, you know, enough is enough.

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This guy was pushing through.

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He was still showing up on Sunday, even when he had panic attack

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it minutes before he was showing up and preaching and present and

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trying to push through his pain.

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And we all decided enough is enough.

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To take a break.

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And so we put him on a sabbatical in April of 2018 and he rested.

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And just a few weeks later, he was diagnosed with depression and we

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finally had some of the answers we were looking for and why he was

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experiencing these panic attacks and why he had so much anxiety and his.

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Body was just depleted.

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It had been a long journey of caring for his dad and watching his dad die

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and caring for the church and raising young family that he was just exhausted.

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But the doctors and the medical team that we had surrounding him was confident that

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he would bounce right back that he was on the low end of the depression spectrum.

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That was.

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In medication and therapy and time off work.

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He would just be back to himself in no time.

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And so we trusted that we trusted their advice.

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We trusted their plan and we took it seriously.

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And so for the next three months, we did everything the doctors told us to do.

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He rested, he started a medical treatment plan.

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We took time together.

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We went on a road trip together, just the two of us took time together at home.

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He read, he went and spent time with mentors.

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I mean, you name it.

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We tried, we tried it.

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We were doing everything we knew to do to get him better.

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And by.

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2018.

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The doctors actually thought he was getting better and thought

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the next right step in his healing journey would be to go back to work.

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And so Andrew returned to work, hit the ground running and gave two powerful

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weekend messages on mental health.

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Talked about depression gave out the suicide hotline number gave

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out quotes from the NAMI website.

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Like he had done his research.

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He would've known where to go for help and then headed into the third week.

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He just had a really awful day at the office.

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His mind wasn't fully healed.

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He had told our family and told our staff that he was at about

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65% when he returned to ministry.

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And so he was hoping to ease back into ministry over time.

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Which many of.

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That are in ministry or have been in ministry, know that it's very

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difficult to ease into ministry.

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It's kinda a full on thing.

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And so really awful day that really triggered mental breakdown in Andrew.

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And it was bad enough where our family and our staff realized like,

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whoa, whoa, whoa, maybe this guy shouldn't have gone back to work.

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Maybe he wasn't ready.

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Maybe he still needed some time to heal.

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And so the following day while we.

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Away from him for just a little bit of time, the unimaginable

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happened and he attempted suicide.

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And it was an absolute blindside.

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I mean, the doctors were blindsided.

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Our family was blindsided.

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Our church was blindsided.

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Here is this young 30 year old, healthy, incredible man living out his

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calling doing the job of his dreams, amazing supportive family and suicide.

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I mean, it was just so unexpected and the worst day of my life.

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And so he was rushed to the hospital and we were given the gift of one

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last day to lay with him and hold him and pray over him and listen

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to his favorite worship songs with him and ultimately to say goodbye.

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And so on August 20.

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2018.

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He took his last breath.

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And with that, I took my first in this very brand new life that I

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never saw coming as a widow and single mom of three little boys who

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were two, four and five years old.

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So it's a journey.

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That day that's a really long description of how I got to where I am today.

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It's been a journey.

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And so it's been about four years since he passed away and my boys now are

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six, eight, and almost 10 years old.

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And we are living in a completely different life.

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I mean, it still takes my breath away some days that this is our life.

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This is the life that we're living.

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This is the life God's led us.

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To we really welcomed our pain, welcomed our grief walked

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through the dark valley of grief.

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I mean, it was very dark, very scary.

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There were days where I didn't know I was gonna survive.

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But I'm here and it's been a lesson the last four years.

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It's been a a giant lesson in learning to live with the pain and God has done some

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incredible ministries through our story.

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I've written a book called fear gone wild.

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I've been able to share Story on various platforms all over the us.

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And I wrote another book that's coming out this fall called rebuilding

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beautiful that I really encapsulates that hope that there can be a beautiful

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life after last that even though that.

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Beautiful life that I had with my husband died with him.

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It's that hope that life can still be beautiful again, and I'm still

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rebuilding that with my boys.

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And so I'm really excited to share that message in just about a month.

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Well, Caleb, we talked even before the podcast, just briefly for a couple

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of minutes and, and I was saying that, you know, a lot of people have the

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assumption that those of us that are in ministry, that we have this kind of a

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star wars force field around us and that we don't have some of the struggles.

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Everyday folks have that are not in ministry.

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And as we were talking, oftentimes those of us that are in ministry, not only

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battle, but in some, some cases maybe even more so because of the fact that,

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that we are in ministry and, you know, here, your husband was 26 year old.

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Obviously he, he was a young pastor and not.

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I mean, but he, he was a pastor too, of a megachurch.

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It's not like this was a small church.

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There was a lot of responsibility that came with his position.

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I, I believe you'd said that it, you know, was several thousand people

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that attended there every single week.

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One of the things I was curious about, Kayla it prior to the situation where

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your husband was facing burnout and started going through this season, had

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there been depression in his life ever before that, or was this literally out

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of the.

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Yeah.

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Andrew, you know, ever since I met Andrew, I met him when he

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was probably 19 or 20 years old.

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And he's always had a towards anxiety.

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He's more, he was more serious very focused, very, so wouldn't say that

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he had had experienced depression before, but he definitely just had a

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bent towards just being a more serious.

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Melancholy type of person mm-hmm and, you know, I think that there were probably

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signs that I missed when his dad was sick.

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There were days where he didn't wanna get outta bed.

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There were days when he would just stay in bed all day and he would call in sick

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to work and he wouldn't show up for work.

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And you.

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Some of those moments where I was so busy with our boys with raising a family.

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And I was also working at the church until we had our third boy.

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I was working in the children's ministry at the church.

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So I had a big responsibility a big team that I oversaw.

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And, and so I was busy, you know, doing my own thing that I didn't always

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notice, you know, some of those warning signs and some of those moments.

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Maybe I should have leaned into and really tried to see him

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and meet him in those moments.

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And Andrew really wanted to be this strong, capable man.

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And so I think he had a hard time showing vulnerability and showing weakness and

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opening up about how he was truly feeling.

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But I think there were some warning.

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Signs and maybe some red flags even before the panic attack started.

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Even, you know, not even taking enough time off degree, he should have taken six

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months off grief or even longer off grief.

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Before he went back to work after his dad passed away.

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So, you know, I think oftentimes we're so focused on what's best

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for the church that we don't.

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Put the pastors best interest in mind or pastor's best interest

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or the pastor's family best interest at the top of the list.

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And we think, you know, they can just handle it or this is what's best for the

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church and we don't wanna lose momentum.

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And if he's not there on Sunday, then people aren't gonna show up and we put.

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So much pressure on this one person to, to lead this church.

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And it's a lot, you know, it's a lot riding on one person.

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I remember Andrew oftentimes calling himself the linchpin.

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He really felt like he was the person holding it all together.

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And I think it was just those four years of when his dad was sick and he really

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truly was the guy, you know, his dad was.

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Speaking through his leukemia journey, we were filming him from the hospital.

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He would show up on Sunday after doing chemotherapy all week.

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I mean, his dad had modeled to him that you do not, that you keep pushing

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through the pain that you keep showing up, that you, the church first.

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And it really wasn't modeled to him to take time to rest and to take

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time off work and to put your own means and the needs of your family

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before the needs of the church.

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Yeah, well, no, there, and there's no doubt about that.

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I literally just left lunch with a close friend of mine where I'm

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preaching this Sunday here locally.

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And we were talking about this very thing about most people just don't

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realize, and it's not a poor me.

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It's just the reality that.

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The pressure in ministry is so, so incredibly high.

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And you talked about, you know, wanting to be strong and put up a good front

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that's that's also a common denominator.

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And I think something that the enemy uses too, to further isolate people, although

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he may not have been open Kayla with other people, was, was he open with you or,

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or was it wanting to shield you as well so that you wouldn't be worried about.

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I think he wanted to shield me in some ways as well.

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And I think we were so young and so naive, you know, I didn't

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grow up in pastor's family.

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I grew up attending church, but I no idea everything that behind the

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scenes, young, starting just wasn't.

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There just, wasn't an awareness of his needs.

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For any of us, you know, it's like, we just, we just thought, you know, Andrew

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was like this super human and he's just gonna get the job done because he did.

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And so there wasn't a lot of space there wasn't a lot of

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time where he was vulnerable, where he opened up to me and I.

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I think I tried, you know, to, to dig in with him.

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And there were moments where I really tried to ask him questions and see him

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and acknowledge his pain and try to give him some space to talk about it.

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But, you know, Andrew was a very private person, very, very close, tight knit

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circle of friends, maybe just one or two people that he led into his life.

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And so he had a very, very private life.

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And I think he really did have a, had a hard time with vulnerability.

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Yeah.

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Well, and that's another thing for most people that are in ministry, especially

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it's when it's a high profile position.

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Like he had at megachurch people in ministry, didn't do tend to put up a

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shield because they feel that they have to, in some ways, protect themselves.

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It's very easy for people to, to find fault and criticism and, and

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because they are supposed to be this strong leader who is invincible.

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And so, you know, I think that's something that you see a lot as well.

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You mentioned that when he went back into full time, back, back to his position that

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he was at, or I think you said, he said that he was at about a 65% recovery rate.

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Looking back on that, I mean, was that something that you felt

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maybe that the professionals.

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Were surrounding him.

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Was that just ignorance on their behalf of, of not recognizing that or was that

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partially of him thinking that okay.

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I'm at 65%, but that's good enough.

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Mm-hmm I mean, what's your thought on that?

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I think, you know, I was, I was concerned when he decided that it

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was time and the doctors decided it was time for him to go back to work.

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You know, I, I was concerned and I was worried now about him, about

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his mental health and his mental.

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Stayed and worried that he wasn't fully healed or fully ready.

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And I just know Andrew and I knew that he wanted to go back.

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There were other, there was other motivation besides, you know, just

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doing the next right steps for healing.

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I think he knew that it was August.

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And people are going back to school and it's when their

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momentum picks up for the church.

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And people are, you know, going back to church on Sunday, they're

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done with their summer vacations.

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And so I think he didn't wanna miss the moment.

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I think he didn't wanna miss the momentum.

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And so I think he pushed himself to go back to work before he was even ready.

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And I think he.

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So badly wanted to be, well, he so badly just wanted the whole nightmare

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of mental health and depression to be over and wanted to be back to himself.

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And I get that.

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I totally understand that, but I wish that he would've himself more grace.

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Yeah.

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Well, and there is, especially at that time of the year for those of us in

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ministry, I mean, it is like, as you say, everybody comes back and, and there's

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these vice grips that are inherent with being in ministry where not only is

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there is, is there this ongoing pressure, but there's these huge expectations.

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And the truth of the matter is.

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No man is the head of the church.

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It's God's the head of the church, but yet there's this expectation that is put on

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people in leadership positions, that you are the head of the church and you have

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these obligations and responsibilities.

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And if you're not SA sailing the ship, the ship's gonna sink another

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thing I wondered Kayla is when people go through tragedy and, and to, to

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really even to say tragedy, this is an understatement, especially for,

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you know, a mother who's a stay home mom and trying to raise three boys.

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And, and something is tragic as this happens.

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And because of my own story and, and having spoken about this all over the

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world, I find some people and, and I certainly don't blame them in, in any way.

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But they go to a season of, of blaming God, you know, that God is responsible.

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I was just wondering, is, is that something that you've struggled with?

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You know, I, I mostly struggled with that when Andrew was sick.

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I really struggled with God.

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Why you, why are you allowing this to happen?

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We just went through four years of his dad battling leukemia of

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a really hard unpredictable life.

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You know, there would be weekends where we expected.

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I expected Andrew to be home.

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Spending time with our family.

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And he would get a call on Friday night that his dad couldn't preach on Sunday.

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And so he'd have to work, you know, get to work right then and, and

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come up with a message for Sunday.

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And so we had been living with that, like that for four years.

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And so I'm like, God, why are you allowing this to happen?

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After the four year journey after his dad passed away after this epic weekend where

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he became the lead pastor and like we're supposed to be headed into a new good.

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Season, why are you allowing this to happen again?

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It felt like.

Jay: 00:19:27

And so it really felt, you know, in that season when Andrew was sick, like

Jay: 00:19:30

a desert season, it felt like we were in this wilderness season of where are you?

Jay: 00:19:34

God, why are you allowing this to happen?

Jay: 00:19:36

And it really felt like God was silent.

Jay: 00:19:38

I remember walking around my house.

Jay: 00:19:40

Andrew was in the bedroom.

Jay: 00:19:41

A lot of the time he was resting and spending time in our bedroom.

Jay: 00:19:45

And so I was really pretty much a single mom that summer and trying

Jay: 00:19:48

to take care of our three boys and trying to keep them away from the

Jay: 00:19:51

bedroom so that their dad could rest.

Jay: 00:19:53

Cause being in an environment was three little boys.

Jay: 00:19:56

Isn't the most restful environment to create that space for him.

Jay: 00:20:01

But I remember walking around my house and crying and saying out

Jay: 00:20:06

loud, like this is the summer from.

Jay: 00:20:08

So I was really struggling.

Jay: 00:20:11

I was really struggling with where are you?

Jay: 00:20:12

God.

Jay: 00:20:13

And why are you allowing this to happen?

Jay: 00:20:15

And.

Jay: 00:20:15

As much as I believe that Andrew's mental health was a chemical

Jay: 00:20:19

imbalance happening in his brain, that it was a result of adrenal

Jay: 00:20:23

burnout and just burnout in general.

Jay: 00:20:25

There was still spiritual component to it.

Jay: 00:20:28

That was very real and very scary.

Jay: 00:20:31

And so that to me was also very frustrating.

Jay: 00:20:33

My husband was terrified and he.

Jay: 00:20:36

Saw things and had some scary encounters with things that he saw.

Jay: 00:20:40

I talk about it in my book, if you're gone wild, there's a whole

Jay: 00:20:43

chapter called stranger things.

Jay: 00:20:44

Where I describe these encounters that he had, and one of 'em was

Jay: 00:20:47

in our bedroom and he saw, you know, it's gonna sound so weird.

Jay: 00:20:50

And some people listening to this, but he saw like five creatures and they

Jay: 00:20:53

all had different names and they were all saying different things to, to him.

Jay: 00:20:57

And they were all the names were like anxiety and depression.

Jay: 00:21:01

And success and failure.

Jay: 00:21:03

And he was terrified.

Jay: 00:21:05

I mean, I walked into my bedroom and got a sheet over his head and shaking and, and.

Jay: 00:21:16

I'm praying.

Jay: 00:21:17

I have people over at our house.

Jay: 00:21:19

They're anointing him with oil.

Jay: 00:21:20

They're anointing every room of our home with oil.

Jay: 00:21:23

They're praying for our family.

Jay: 00:21:25

We have thousands of people praying for our family.

Jay: 00:21:27

Why are you allowing this to happen?

Jay: 00:21:29

Why are you allowing him to be terrified?

Jay: 00:21:31

Why aren't you fixing this?

Jay: 00:21:32

And then ultimately he dies.

Jay: 00:21:34

And then it's like, really like, God, what the heck?

Jay: 00:21:38

So it's been a wrestle, you know, it's been a wrestle with God.

Jay: 00:21:42

And oftentimes I think about the story of Jesus and the garden of G enemy.

Jay: 00:21:46

And he's having that moment where he's on his knees and he is

Jay: 00:21:49

begging God for a different way.

Jay: 00:21:51

It's like, God, why are you allowing this to happen?

Jay: 00:21:53

God, is there any other way, like, does it have to go down like.

Jay: 00:21:57

Do I have to die like this?

Jay: 00:21:59

Like, does this, is this the way things have to be?

Jay: 00:22:02

And ultimately he surrenders and he's like, not my will, but your will be.

Jay: 00:22:06

And so after passed away was like that surrender of like, I

Jay: 00:22:10

can't change my circumstance.

Jay: 00:22:12

Ultimately you allowed.

Jay: 00:22:14

This to happen.

Jay: 00:22:15

Ultimately, I don't believe this was plan a for Andrew's life.

Jay: 00:22:18

But ultimately, you know, God allowed this to happen.

Jay: 00:22:21

And so what now God.

Jay: 00:22:23

Okay.

Jay: 00:22:23

So render my plan to you.

Jay: 00:22:25

Everything I thought about what my life would be is

Jay: 00:22:28

washed away with Andrews death.

Jay: 00:22:30

So what is my life gonna be now?

Jay: 00:22:32

And what I found on the other side of death on the other side of.

Jay: 00:22:37

Was that God is everywhere.

Jay: 00:22:40

I mean, it was a while to go from this desert season of where you got

Jay: 00:22:45

and why aren't you fixing this to the worst thing imaginable happening?

Jay: 00:22:50

So you're literally feeling like God is everywhere.

Jay: 00:22:53

There was miracle after miracle after miracle.

Jay: 00:22:57

And that verse that the Lord comforts the broken hearted or the Lord's close

Jay: 00:23:02

to the broken hearted and comforts.

Jay: 00:23:03

Those who are Christian spirit is just so true.

Jay: 00:23:05

I mean, God.

Jay: 00:23:06

So, so close.

Jay: 00:23:08

And I, I had coffee dates with friends where I was sharing with

Jay: 00:23:11

them, the things that he was doing in our life, and they were weeping

Jay: 00:23:14

with me and they said out loud, they have never seen the hand of God.

Jay: 00:23:18

Like they've the of God in my grief, little tiny miracles.

Jay: 00:23:21

Like the, I'll give you an example.

Jay: 00:23:23

Right after my husband passed away, I waited a week to tell my kids.

Jay: 00:23:26

And when I did sit them down and tell them right after that, I sat and I

Jay: 00:23:32

colored in this coloring book with my five year and the coloring book

Jay: 00:23:37

description, describing grief and death through the life cycle of caterpillar.

Jay: 00:23:42

And so we were sitting there and we were together.

Jay: 00:23:44

We were talking about caterpillars and cocoons and butterflies,

Jay: 00:23:48

and then it was nap time.

Jay: 00:23:49

So we put the book and I went to the curtains in our living room and right

Jay: 00:23:54

where I put my hand on the curtain, a little tiny green caterpillar.

Jay: 00:23:58

And I, I don't touch bugs, but I pulled the caterpillar off the curtain and I ran

Jay: 00:24:03

and showed my five year old son Smith.

Jay: 00:24:05

And I said, look, it's a caterpillar and Smith without skipping a beat

Jay: 00:24:09

said, it's a miracle from God.

Jay: 00:24:11

So he gave us little tiny miracles that my boys could see that were

Jay: 00:24:15

tangible, that they could notice, and then huge, huge miracles.

Jay: 00:24:20

For me, you know, and for our family and provision for our family.

Jay: 00:24:23

In huge ways, you know, huge financial blessing for our family

Jay: 00:24:27

because Andrew died by suicide.

Jay: 00:24:29

There was no life insurance.

Jay: 00:24:30

He had opted outta social security.

Jay: 00:24:32

So we were not in a good place financially, and God just provided

Jay: 00:24:36

above and beyond that way too.

Jay: 00:24:38

And people, he gave people a heart to give to our family.

Jay: 00:24:41

And so there were huge, huge miracles, tiny little miracles.

Jay: 00:24:46

Went from where are you got to?

Jay: 00:24:48

Oh my gosh, God, you are covering all of our needs.

Jay: 00:24:51

You're so close.

Jay: 00:24:52

You're so good.

Jay: 00:24:53

You're everywhere.

Jay: 00:24:54

I will never understand why you allowed this to happen, but I trust you.

Jay: 00:24:59

Wow.

Jay: 00:25:00

Well, obviously there was a, a huge struggle and that would to be expected,

Jay: 00:25:05

but it sounds like Kayla that it really wasn't, you didn't go through

Jay: 00:25:09

that season of really blaming God questioning God, of course, but, but not

Jay: 00:25:12

really blaming him for what happened.

Jay: 00:25:13

I, it sounds as though you recognized that, that it wasn't God's fault.

Jay: 00:25:18

Am I correct?

Jay: 00:25:20

Yeah, I truly believe, you know, when suicide happens, suicide

Jay: 00:25:24

is such a different kinda death.

Jay: 00:25:26

And when suicide happens, it's easy to point the finger at anybody and everybody,

Jay: 00:25:31

you can point the finger at the spouse.

Jay: 00:25:33

You can point the finger at the family.

Jay: 00:25:35

You can point the finger at the circumstance.

Jay: 00:25:37

You can point the finger at the medication or at the doctors or at God or whatever.

Jay: 00:25:42

And for me, you know, I see Andrew's death as a horrible tragic.

Jay: 00:25:47

Accidents.

Jay: 00:25:48

And I don't blame anybody.

Jay: 00:25:50

I describe Andrew's death and like a child drowning in a

Jay: 00:25:54

swimming pool at a birthday party.

Jay: 00:25:56

I mean, he was surrounded by people that loved him and we all just missed it.

Jay: 00:26:01

We all just had no idea how bad his depression really was.

Jay: 00:26:05

And I truly believe that Andrew didn't even know how

Jay: 00:26:08

bad his depression really was.

Jay: 00:26:09

And his psychiatrist after he died said something to me that was really helpful.

Jay: 00:26:14

He said that 90% of suicides are impulsive.

Jay: 00:26:18

It's this in the moment, overwhelming flood of pain, that many of us

Jay: 00:26:22

aren't capable of understanding unless we've been there, unless

Jay: 00:26:25

we've had an attempt, unless.

Jay: 00:26:26

Many of us are just uncap uncapable of understanding.

Jay: 00:26:29

And so I truly believe that the suicide isn't anybody's fault.

Jay: 00:26:32

It's not Andrew's fault.

Jay: 00:26:33

It's not God's fault.

Jay: 00:26:34

It's not my fault.

Jay: 00:26:35

It's not the doctor's fault.

Jay: 00:26:37

It's not anybody's fault.

Jay: 00:26:38

Nobody is to blame.

Jay: 00:26:39

It's a horrific tragedy.

Jay: 00:26:42

And trying to put blame on anything or anybody is just super unhelpful.

Jay: 00:26:48

Taylor.

Jay: 00:26:48

When I was struggling with suicidal tendencies.

Jay: 00:26:51

There were people around me that knew I had issues, but even those that were

Jay: 00:26:56

closest to me, albeit a very limited circle, really had no recognition

Jay: 00:27:03

of how dark the darkness was and, and how much I was suffocating.

Jay: 00:27:08

And part of that was similar to your husband.

Jay: 00:27:11

I, I, I didn't want people to know.

Jay: 00:27:13

I wanted people to think, you know, I'm a man and I can handle this and

Jay: 00:27:15

I'm strong and yada, yada But, but people didn't really didn't know.

Jay: 00:27:20

And matter of fact, even a friend of mine years later wanted to meet with me.

Jay: 00:27:23

And, and I was telling him about some struggles he was having.

Jay: 00:27:27

And anyway, he later went home and, and hung himself and his, his kids found him

Jay: 00:27:32

and I carried a lot of guilt of going Jay, if anybody should have recognized

Jay: 00:27:37

the signs, it should have been you.

Jay: 00:27:39

I mean, you've, you've dealt with this in your own personal life and, and how.

Jay: 00:27:44

Did you miss it?

Jay: 00:27:45

And, and so I carried, I felt like I carried some responsibility that

Jay: 00:27:51

I didn't see the signs you talked about and it, and it's always easy.

Jay: 00:27:55

As the old saying goes, hindsight is 2020, meaning.

Jay: 00:27:59

Yeah, you can, you can look behind you and go, how did I miss that?

Jay: 00:28:01

And, oh, now this all makes sense.

Jay: 00:28:04

And you talked about after your husband had ended his life.

Jay: 00:28:08

You, you, you, you did see some of the signs that weren't so visible, you know,

Jay: 00:28:13

it's, it's kinda like your analogy of a, a kid in a swimming pool drowning.

Jay: 00:28:18

I think for a lot of people, it's the people that are surrounding.

Jay: 00:28:24

And from my perspective, it's like, they're blind.

Jay: 00:28:26

It's not that they don't care.

Jay: 00:28:28

It's not like they wouldn't help.

Jay: 00:28:29

It's not like they don't want to help.

Jay: 00:28:32

It's that proverbial.

Jay: 00:28:34

Yeah.

Jay: 00:28:34

I'm in the pool drowning, but all the people around me.

Jay: 00:28:37

They, they can't hear me and they can't see me.

Jay: 00:28:39

And so I wondered when you looked back and saw, okay, gosh, now

Jay: 00:28:44

I, I, I see this and I see that.

Jay: 00:28:46

Did you carry a sense of guilt of why didn't I recognize this?

Jay: 00:28:50

And well, if I would've, if I would've seen this, as clearly as I do now, well,

Jay: 00:28:55

then I could have done this and that.

Jay: 00:28:56

Did, did you walk down that dark path of feeling guilt and wondering, blaming

Jay: 00:29:02

yourself for why you didn't see it?

Jay: 00:29:04

When, when it was so obvious in H.

Jay: 00:29:07

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Jay: 00:29:08

I think anybody that deeply loved Andrew would've done anything that

Jay: 00:29:12

they, that they could have to save him.

Jay: 00:29:14

And so after he passed away, there were months where my mind

Jay: 00:29:18

would literally try to save him.

Jay: 00:29:20

My mind would come up with every possible scenario and it would replay

Jay: 00:29:24

over and over and over and over just trying to make sense of the trauma.

Jay: 00:29:27

Just trying to make sense of what happened.

Jay: 00:29:28

My mind had no category.

Jay: 00:29:31

And so we just replay over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

Jay: 00:29:34

And so I did struggle for a while.

Jay: 00:29:37

With regret and with thinking back and wondering what I'd miss.

Jay: 00:29:41

And as I did look back, you know, there was a moment where Andrew tried to tell

Jay: 00:29:45

me we were sitting at the kitchen counter.

Jay: 00:29:47

It was after the kids had gone to sleep.

Jay: 00:29:49

And like I said, like it was the summer from hell for me.

Jay: 00:29:52

And so I was exhausted.

Jay: 00:29:54

I was depleted, I was getting burnt out Andrew's therapist had shared with me.

Jay: 00:30:00

To burdening his depression, his depression.

Jay: 00:30:16

And his response to me is that he's venting to me about his own pain too.

Jay: 00:30:21

And he tells me that he was up in the middle of the night, the night

Jay: 00:30:24

before and had his organization chart spread all over the counter.

Jay: 00:30:29

And he thought about killing himself.

Jay: 00:30:32

And I reacted out of my own emotion out of my own exhaustion.

Jay: 00:30:36

I couldn't even hear or see what he was trying to say.

Jay: 00:30:39

And so I reacted of my own emotion.

Jay: 00:30:42

I said, Andrew, that's the most selfish thing you could ever do.

Jay: 00:30:44

You would never do that to me.

Jay: 00:30:46

And the boys just totally offended.

Jay: 00:30:48

Like, I can't believe you even said that.

Jay: 00:30:51

And I just totally dismissed it.

Jay: 00:30:52

And Andrew, I'll never forget.

Jay: 00:30:54

Andrew looked at me and said, Kayla, that's not what you.

Jay: 00:30:57

You need to do some research and up with something better to say, and he was.

Jay: 00:31:02

You know, that's not what you say.

Jay: 00:31:03

I know now that's not what you say to someone that's struggling with suicidal

Jay: 00:31:07

ideation, with someone that's trying to you, the darkest struggle of their mind.

Jay: 00:31:12

Like that is not what someone's vulnerable and raise their hand and out for help.

Jay: 00:31:19

You don't just dismiss them.

Jay: 00:31:21

You know, looking back.

Jay: 00:31:22

I wish I would've been able to pause in that moment to realize, to take my ego

Jay: 00:31:27

off the table and realize that moment.

Jay: 00:31:29

Wasn't about.

Jay: 00:31:31

And to have the ability to pause for that moment and respond instead of react.

Jay: 00:31:37

When someone tells you that they're struggling with suicidal

Jay: 00:31:40

thoughts, it's time to lean in.

Jay: 00:31:42

It's time to ask questions, questions, like, do you have a suicide plan?

Jay: 00:31:46

What problem are you trying to solve through suicide?

Jay: 00:31:49

How far have you researched it?

Jay: 00:31:51

How often are you thinking about.

Jay: 00:31:53

It's time to up the phone and call the suicide hotline.

Jay: 00:31:56

I wish I would've done that.

Jay: 00:31:57

I didn't exist that the

Jay: 00:32:08

psychiatrist, psychiatrist the day and.

Jay: 00:32:13

Said this to me, I'm concerned.

Jay: 00:32:15

I wish I would've told our therapist.

Jay: 00:32:17

Hey, my husband said this to I'm concerned.

Jay: 00:32:19

I would've invited other family members that were walking the mental health

Jay: 00:32:23

journey with, into the conversation.

Jay: 00:32:26

But I didn't tell, and I never brought it up.

Jay: 00:32:31

And I think I did a total disservice to Andrew because I

Jay: 00:32:34

just, I truly didn't underst.

Jay: 00:32:36

And so, you know, looking back I know that I did the best that I could

Jay: 00:32:40

given the circumstance that I was in, and there's so much grace for that.

Jay: 00:32:44

But I it's.

Jay: 00:32:45

I'm so grateful that I'm able to share that now.

Jay: 00:32:48

Hopefully for other people to not miss that moment, if someone's trying,

Jay: 00:32:51

they're struggling, suicidal thought, not that moment, not that opportunity.

Jay: 00:32:58

The one and opportunity that to see into, to be invited into

Jay: 00:33:03

that dark space of their mind.

Jay: 00:33:05

And so I wish I would've asked.

Jay: 00:33:07

Every day too.

Jay: 00:33:08

I wish I would've been comfortable.

Jay: 00:33:09

You know, I think the word suicide scared me.

Jay: 00:33:12

I think I, I think I was notable even saying the word suicide out loud and

Jay: 00:33:16

now I, then I, that truly never happen.

Jay: 00:33:23

But I wish I would've asked him every single day.

Jay: 00:33:26

Are you suicidal today?

Jay: 00:33:27

How are your suicidal thoughts going?

Jay: 00:33:29

Have you been thinking about suicide?

Jay: 00:33:30

I wish I just would've been able to see him and see how bad it really was.

Jay: 00:33:34

I just totally dismissed it and thought it would never happen.

Jay: 00:33:38

And

Jay: 00:33:38

it did well.

Jay: 00:33:38

I'm really glad that you answered that question the way you did, because

Jay: 00:33:42

there may be people who will listen.

Jay: 00:33:44

This podcast who recently are made in the future, have someone that,

Jay: 00:33:49

that makes this statement similar to what your husband made to you.

Jay: 00:33:52

And maybe out of just a response or maybe out of trying to, in some way,

Jay: 00:33:58

awaken them out of darkness to say, you know, Hey, this is a selfish thing.

Jay: 00:34:03

And, and I, I love your answer, you know, and that.

Jay: 00:34:06

Continue to ask them to encourage them.

Jay: 00:34:08

If they're not getting therapy to get therapy to surround themselves with

Jay: 00:34:12

other people to not react, but yet take an action by, and, and you gave

Jay: 00:34:17

so many helpful things about what, what people can do in, in that scenario that

Jay: 00:34:22

you wish you would've said just last week I was in Colorado on vacation.

Jay: 00:34:27

And there's a guy that lives up in the north who has traveled with our ministry

Jay: 00:34:33

on occasion and, and out of the blue text.

Jay: 00:34:35

Me and I, I know that he's going through a divorce and texted me and

Jay: 00:34:39

said, Hey does God forgive people that commit suicide and I was on vacation.

Jay: 00:34:44

And so I normally, I mean, it was just me and my wife.

Jay: 00:34:47

It was the first time just the two of us have been on vacation.

Jay: 00:34:49

And I don't, I can't even remember when with no kids.

Jay: 00:34:53

And so I really tried to stay disconnected from ministry or phone calls or

Jay: 00:34:59

emails or texts, the best I could.

Jay: 00:35:01

And we were about to go on a hike, but I knew that when I got the text.

Jay: 00:35:07

Although he was trying to camouflage it where it sounded as though he

Jay: 00:35:10

was just asking a a random question.

Jay: 00:35:13

I knew that what he was trying to find out was if he ended his life, would

Jay: 00:35:17

God send him to hell, which number one?

Jay: 00:35:19

I don't believe that, but he didn't know.

Jay: 00:35:21

So I immediately immediately called him.

Jay: 00:35:23

And, and some of the things that you said, you know, I asked him if he was

Jay: 00:35:27

going to therapy and he said, yes, he was.

Jay: 00:35:29

And I said, does your therapist know your suicidal?

Jay: 00:35:31

And he said, no.

Jay: 00:35:32

And I asked him to make a commitment that he would call his therapist,

Jay: 00:35:37

you know, here I'm in Colorado.

Jay: 00:35:38

And I won't say what state he's in, but a long way from where I'm at.

Jay: 00:35:42

It made him promise that he would not that he would contact his

Jay: 00:35:46

therapist and let his therapist know.

Jay: 00:35:47

I did tell him that I was on vacation, but even though I was on vacation

Jay: 00:35:50

that, you know, I I'm I'm here for him.

Jay: 00:35:53

And that while I am accessible, even though I'm on vacation, that it, he

Jay: 00:35:58

needs to have other people that he tells this to, that can also reach out to him.

Jay: 00:36:02

So I think those are, are really important steps that people can take.

Jay: 00:36:07

Like you said, even the, the suicide hot.

Jay: 00:36:09

asking, do you have a plan?

Jay: 00:36:11

Which I think is another great question because it kind of

Jay: 00:36:13

gives you an idea of how, how in depth they've thought about this.

Jay: 00:36:17

How serious are they?

Jay: 00:36:18

I mean, have they actually got to a place where in his case, matter of fact,

Jay: 00:36:22

it's ironic that we're talking about it because I got a text message from him.

Jay: 00:36:26

Yesterday.

Jay: 00:36:27

And he said that he had already made a recording for his boys and had put him

Jay: 00:36:33

in a Dropbox and left a note for his family that when they found him that he

Jay: 00:36:38

had made recordings for his boys to let his boys know how much he loved him.

Jay: 00:36:42

So, yeah, I, I loved your, your, your answer and I love the action

Jay: 00:36:46

items that, that you listed out.

Jay: 00:36:48

But I do wanna ask you this kind of in this same, on this same racetrack here.

Jay: 00:36:53

You talked about this guilt that you had and how you wished you would've

Jay: 00:36:57

responded at that moment of weakness, where he was trying to, in his own

Jay: 00:37:01

way, he was reaching out for help.

Jay: 00:37:03

He, he was trying to tell you how deeply he was hurting and, and you

Jay: 00:37:07

did talk about, you know, the guilt and how you relive that and wish

Jay: 00:37:10

you would've responded differently.

Jay: 00:37:12

But I think there may be people listening to this podcast that.

Jay: 00:37:15

Yeah, well, that's where I'm at now.

Jay: 00:37:17

And I'm still carrying the guilt.

Jay: 00:37:18

How, how did you actually move past that guilt of self blame?

Jay: 00:37:22

Where I shouldn't have said this.

Jay: 00:37:24

I shouldn't have made it about me.

Jay: 00:37:25

I should have taken these other action steps that I now know to take.

Jay: 00:37:28

How did you get past that guilt?

Jay: 00:37:30

That some people are still carrying Kayla.

Jay: 00:37:32

Yeah, I think it's really important to view suicide differently

Jay: 00:37:37

to look at suicide through a completely different lens.

Jay: 00:37:40

I think so often, you know, our culture and the way the words that we choose

Jay: 00:37:45

to describe suicide are words like committed suicide or killed themselves.

Jay: 00:37:50

And when you say words like that, you're putting blame on the person that died.

Jay: 00:37:54

And so, you know, it's so important for me to change that language.

Jay: 00:37:57

And I had that shift right away where someone had explained to me that instead

Jay: 00:38:02

of saying committed suicide or killed themself, you say died by suicide.

Jay: 00:38:07

And even that small shift in language totally takes the blame off of everybody.

Jay: 00:38:13

It takes the blame off of the person who died.

Jay: 00:38:16

It takes the blame off the loved one.

Jay: 00:38:18

It takes the blame off the medical team.

Jay: 00:38:19

You know, they died by suicide, mental.

Jay: 00:38:22

Mental illness is a real illness, just as real as any other illness.

Jay: 00:38:27

Mental illness is Aly, just other illness and mental invisible.

Jay: 00:38:39

I think choosing to see the suicide through empathetic know through seeing

Jay: 00:38:46

that truly doctors and the totally unaware of how sick he truly was and

Jay: 00:38:59

the suicide isn't anybody's fault.

Jay: 00:39:01

It's not Andrew's fault.

Jay: 00:39:03

It's not my.

Jay: 00:39:03

It truly is a tragedy and nobody is to blame.

Jay: 00:39:06

And so even when we we're, we're discussing it and talking about it

Jay: 00:39:09

in therapy or talking about it with friends, you know, I never talk about

Jay: 00:39:13

it in a way where I feel guilt or where I'm putting guilt on Andrew.

Jay: 00:39:17

And I think not only is that a gift to me and my own healing

Jay: 00:39:21

journey because there's no bitter.

Jay: 00:39:23

And there's no blame.

Jay: 00:39:24

I, I really truly have grace extended grace towards Andrew and extended

Jay: 00:39:29

grace towards the team of doctors and extended grace towards myself.

Jay: 00:39:35

I think that's the, the, the, the biggest gift that we can give ourselves

Jay: 00:39:38

is to extend grace to everybody, even

Jay: 00:39:40

to ourself.

Jay: 00:39:41

Right.

Jay: 00:39:41

And just change your perspective of, I love what you said about changing

Jay: 00:39:45

your perspective, but in all honesty, Kayla, a lot of people tell me that

Jay: 00:39:48

they still feel anger at a loved one.

Jay: 00:39:51

Do you have seasons of feeling anger at him or have you

Jay: 00:39:54

completely been able to walk away?

Jay: 00:39:57

I truly don't.

Jay: 00:39:58

And I can honestly say that, you know, there are moments where I'm

Jay: 00:40:01

like, gosh, I wish you were here.

Jay: 00:40:02

You know, obviously like every single day I wish was here and my

Jay: 00:40:06

boys are growing up without a dad.

Jay: 00:40:08

And so I have the tangible reality of raising three boys

Jay: 00:40:12

as a single woman on my own.

Jay: 00:40:14

And so there are moments every single day where it's just like this ache and

Jay: 00:40:18

this Ugh, you know, in the deep of my gut where I'm like, man, I wish you were here.

Jay: 00:40:22

But anger, no.

Jay: 00:40:23

You know, I think at the beginning, in that first year or two there

Jay: 00:40:27

may have been some anger that I worked through, but I've, I truly

Jay: 00:40:31

just have been able to get to a.

Jay: 00:40:33

Where I can see the suicide as a tragedy where I can see the suicide,

Jay: 00:40:38

you know, there was a description.

Jay: 00:40:39

think Anne Voskamp had written a description in one of her blog.

Jay: 00:40:43

About suicide and described it as being trapped in a burning building.

Jay: 00:40:47

And the only way to escape the flames is to jump out the window.

Jay: 00:40:51

And so, you know, Andrew was experiencing overwhelming pain pain that I am totally,

Jay: 00:40:57

you know, I'm more familiar with now that I've walked through grief but pain that

Jay: 00:41:01

I truly will never be able to underst.

Jay: 00:41:03

And in that moment of desperation he felt like the only way the only

Jay: 00:41:08

escape was to jump out the window.

Jay: 00:41:11

And so you know, I think just living in that reality and, and seeing the,

Jay: 00:41:18

that, and truly isn't something that in Andrew's healthy, right mind this

Jay: 00:41:24

isn't something he would've ever chosen.

Jay: 00:41:26

I think he is just a surprise by the suicide that the rest of us are.

Jay: 00:41:31

And so yeah, I've really, I've really been able to reconcile those feelings.

Jay: 00:41:35

And I think inviting God into my journey and surrendering a lot of

Jay: 00:41:39

that to him and I journal a lot.

Jay: 00:41:42

I went to therapy every single week for an hour for the first two years of my grief.

Jay: 00:41:47

Still go to therapy.

Jay: 00:41:49

Like once every three months now I see my therapist cause I am doing better

Jay: 00:41:53

and I'm in a much better place, but I still think it's really important.

Jay: 00:41:57

And through, through being in community, you know, through inviting people

Jay: 00:42:01

into my pain, through inviting people, into my anger, through inviting

Jay: 00:42:04

people, into my guilt, through inviting people into some of those

Jay: 00:42:08

raw vulnerable spaces and emotions, I.

Jay: 00:42:11

Friends that have just held me.

Jay: 00:42:13

They haven't tried to show up with an agenda.

Jay: 00:42:15

They haven't tried to show up with all the right things to say, they've,

Jay: 00:42:18

they've just sat and wet with me and held me and said, I'm so sorry.

Jay: 00:42:23

And that was enough.

Jay: 00:42:24

Their presence was enough.

Jay: 00:42:26

And so I think inviting doing life with community surrendering my grief and my

Jay: 00:42:32

pain and my questions to God and truly.

Jay: 00:42:38

Facing my trauma head on and going to therapy and welcoming the pain and going

Jay: 00:42:43

right through the pain and learning to live with it, you know, pain, isn't

Jay: 00:42:46

something you get over or you move past.

Jay: 00:42:49

Pain is something that you invite into your life.

Jay: 00:42:51

And so learning to welcome it and invite it and see what it has to teach me.

Jay: 00:42:56

And there have been so many lessons in my grief that I would've never.

Jay: 00:43:00

Had I not gone through this experience.

Jay: 00:43:02

And so pain has been one of the greatest teachers of my life.

Jay: 00:43:05

And as much as I hate what happened to me, I am so grateful for the

Jay: 00:43:09

lessons that I've learned through it.

Jay: 00:43:11

And I love the fact Kayla that you're giving people tools.

Jay: 00:43:14

I don't even know if you recognize, I don't even think you're doing it

Jay: 00:43:17

intentional, but I mean, you just, even in dealing with grief, you just gave people.

Jay: 00:43:24

I don't want to say an outline because there is no specific outline, but you're

Jay: 00:43:29

doing the exact opposite, you know, of what your husband knew to do in your pain.

Jay: 00:43:33

You're doing what people who are suicidal or who are considering,

Jay: 00:43:37

or have suicidal tendencies.

Jay: 00:43:38

You're doing the exact opposite.

Jay: 00:43:40

You're letting people in, you're surrounding yourself with people

Jay: 00:43:43

who love you, who allow you to be real and transparent and authentic

Jay: 00:43:48

about your pain, about whether, whether it was anger, whether it

Jay: 00:43:51

was guilt, whether whatever it was.

Jay: 00:43:53

And that's a solution.

Jay: 00:43:55

Not only for people who are contemplating suicide is allowing people in because

Jay: 00:44:00

they tend to isolate themselves.

Jay: 00:44:02

But it's also a recipe for people who are on the other side, like yourself.

Jay: 00:44:07

You allow people to, to, to walk into your world and to invade your world.

Jay: 00:44:13

And of course it's gotta be the right people.

Jay: 00:44:14

It's gotta be people who, as you said, don't come with an agenda

Jay: 00:44:17

and they come with a listening ear.

Jay: 00:44:19

They come out of love.

Jay: 00:44:20

They come out of compassion.

Jay: 00:44:21

They come out of a, a, a, a.

Jay: 00:44:23

An endeavor to understand.

Jay: 00:44:25

And so, even though I don't even know if you're aware of it, you're really

Jay: 00:44:28

giving some great tools for somebody that may be listening today that maybe

Jay: 00:44:33

they all, they feel guilt or, or they're still going through that process.

Jay: 00:44:36

Maybe they're angry at God or blaming God or blaming a

Jay: 00:44:38

loved one who took their life.

Jay: 00:44:40

What you're doing and what you have done, you know, you even mentioned therapy

Jay: 00:44:44

and, and these are things that are very viable assets and resources and tools

Jay: 00:44:50

to, to help people deal with this.

Jay: 00:44:52

You know, one of the things that today, or really a couple of things

Jay: 00:44:54

that I wanted to discuss, that really you've said without us even having to

Jay: 00:44:58

discuss them, I, I wanna talk about, you know, removing the shame and stigma

Jay: 00:45:02

that's associated with mental health.

Jay: 00:45:04

It never even really even came out as a topic because you talked

Jay: 00:45:07

about having a different mindset, a, a different perspective on that.

Jay: 00:45:11

I wanted to talk about, you know, recognizing.

Jay: 00:45:14

Suicidal tendencies as a medical situation.

Jay: 00:45:16

And not always, sometimes it is a spiritual issue.

Jay: 00:45:19

No doubt.

Jay: 00:45:20

And I do believe the forces of darkness.

Jay: 00:45:21

We know that the scripture says in John 8 44, that Satanists come to

Jay: 00:45:25

he's a murderer matter of fact says he was a murderer from the beginning.

Jay: 00:45:28

So not saying that there aren't I do believe that's a part of the puzzle

Jay: 00:45:32

that it can be a spiritual issue, but it also is a medical condition.

Jay: 00:45:36

And so I just love how.

Jay: 00:45:38

You know, you you've hit on so many different topics that I wanted to, to

Jay: 00:45:41

dive into that you've addressed with maybe like I say, not even knowing that,

Jay: 00:45:46

that, that you were addressing them.

Jay: 00:45:48

One of the things I wanted to ask you as a person who has been in ministry in a

Jay: 00:45:53

mega way in a megachurch, why do you think Kayla that suicide and mental health and

Jay: 00:45:59

depression are not more openly discussed?

Jay: 00:46:02

I, I have my opinions about this, but I'd be curious what your thoughts.

Jay: 00:46:06

Yeah, I think ultimately, and I think it's getting a lot better.

Jay: 00:46:09

I've seen improvement in the conversation and people being willing and being

Jay: 00:46:13

brave enough to have conversations about mental health and depression.

Jay: 00:46:17

Since Andrew died, I it's, Andrew died.

Jay: 00:46:20

There's another big pastor that died.

Jay: 00:46:23

Several pastors that have died from suicide.

Jay: 00:46:25

I think it's really cracked open the conversation where churches

Jay: 00:46:28

have realized like, this is something we need to talk about.

Jay: 00:46:30

And so I'm.

Jay: 00:46:31

So grateful for that wanna acknowledge that.

Jay: 00:46:33

But I think, I think there still is a stigma, you know, I think there

Jay: 00:46:37

still is this stigma that if you have enough faith that you believe that

Jay: 00:46:41

if you believe in God, very hard yep.

Jay: 00:46:44

That you'll never struggle with depression, that you should never struggle

Jay: 00:46:48

with suicidal thoughts that you'll never struggle with mental illness.

Jay: 00:46:51

If you're just close enough to God.

Jay: 00:46:53

You're praying every day and you're in the word and you're

Jay: 00:46:56

doing all these things with yes.

Jay: 00:46:58

Like do those things, you know, be in community, be in the word chase after

Jay: 00:47:02

God do life with the holy spirit.

Jay: 00:47:04

Like yes, yes, please do all those things.

Jay: 00:47:06

I think those things will improve your mental health, but it's not just a

Jay: 00:47:11

spiritual thing, you know, we're not.

Jay: 00:47:13

Spiritual beings where also like have physical bodies that get sick.

Jay: 00:47:18

And so mental illness is a real physical illness, just like

Jay: 00:47:21

any other physical illness.

Jay: 00:47:23

And so I think it should be treated with the same empathy and compassion and tender

Jay: 00:47:27

care and love like any other illness.

Jay: 00:47:31

And I think that's.

Jay: 00:47:31

Where the church sometimes misses

Jay: 00:47:33

the mark.

Jay: 00:47:34

Oh, I totally agree.

Jay: 00:47:35

And I've heard people say that so many times, as you stated, you

Jay: 00:47:38

know, you need to pray harder.

Jay: 00:47:39

You need to have bigger faith and what's ironic people who say

Jay: 00:47:43

that about mental health issues.

Jay: 00:47:45

Wouldn't say that about The flu, nobody would say, well, if you would've prayed

Jay: 00:47:49

harder, if you would've went to church more often, if you'd have read your

Jay: 00:47:52

Bible, you'd have never got the flu.

Jay: 00:47:53

No people recognize that part of being a human being is, is you're

Jay: 00:47:58

susceptible to illness or to sickness.

Jay: 00:48:00

But for some reason, when it comes to mental health, well, that's a different

Jay: 00:48:03

issue where people think, oh no, no, no.

Jay: 00:48:06

If, if you're walking with God that you're isolated from that, and it's not true.

Jay: 00:48:11

Mm.

Jay: 00:48:12

Okay.

Jay: 00:48:12

As we, you know, kind of bring this thing to a close.

Jay: 00:48:15

And, and I, there are people who listen to our podcasts that are believers.

Jay: 00:48:18

There will be people, people that listen to this, that are ministry

Jay: 00:48:21

leaders, lay leaders, people that are from all walks of life.

Jay: 00:48:25

And there will be people that will listen to this podcast that, that

Jay: 00:48:28

don't have a relationship to Christ.

Jay: 00:48:31

You know, of course our goal here, we're not trying to harpoon anybody or

Jay: 00:48:34

spear anybody, but we do want people to know that ultimately, as people who are

Jay: 00:48:39

followers of Christ, our ultimate hope is in him, in him and nothing less, not in,

Jay: 00:48:45

not in religion, not in denomination not in any good works, but our, our hope is in

Jay: 00:48:51

the fact that God's son gave his life, he was executed on dead mans hill 2000 years.

Jay: 00:48:58

not so we could be isolated from all problems and difficulties,

Jay: 00:49:02

but so we could have relationship, not religion, but relationship.

Jay: 00:49:06

And as we kind of bring this thing to a close Kayla,

Jay: 00:49:09

obviously I know you love Jesus.

Jay: 00:49:10

And, and, and you're a believer.

Jay: 00:49:12

What would you say?

Jay: 00:49:13

Just somebody who is listening to this podcast and, and they're not a believer

Jay: 00:49:18

what words would you have for them?

Jay: 00:49:23

I would say you're missing out.

Jay: 00:49:25

If you, you're not doing life with God and you're not doing life with the holy

Jay: 00:49:29

spirit that you're missing out on the, on the peace on the love, the you missing out

Jay: 00:49:37

on one of the greatest mysteries of life.

Jay: 00:49:40

And I know that I couldn't have survived what I've survived the last

Jay: 00:49:43

four years without God, without my faith without doing life with him.

Jay: 00:49:47

And so I just encourage you to after what that is in your life,

Jay: 00:49:51

what that looks like for your life.

Jay: 00:49:52

Get curious to ask questions, to pick up a book, maybe pick up a devotional.

Jay: 00:49:58

Maybe someone's gifted you a book and it's been collecting dust on your

Jay: 00:50:01

bookshelf and maybe it's time to crack it open and just get a little curious.

Jay: 00:50:05

About what, who is this Jesus guy and what does it mean to live life with him, to

Jay: 00:50:10

walk with him, to follow the way of Jesus?

Jay: 00:50:13

Like, what does that mean?

Jay: 00:50:14

What does that look like?

Jay: 00:50:15

What does it look like to be filled with the power of the holy spirit?

Jay: 00:50:18

And I always encourage you to.

Jay: 00:50:20

Questions to get in community to find a local church.

Jay: 00:50:25

And, and honestly, I think it does start with curiosity with just showing

Jay: 00:50:29

on a Sunday and just checking it out.

Jay: 00:50:31

And if you don't like it, go check out one around the corner there,

Jay: 00:50:35

another one around the corner.

Jay: 00:50:36

And that, you know, when you, when we do life with God, it truly.

Jay: 00:50:41

The best life.

Jay: 00:50:42

And that doesn't mean that it's exempt from hardship.

Jay: 00:50:45

That doesn't mean that awful, terrible, horrible things

Jay: 00:50:48

won't happen because they will.

Jay: 00:50:49

But what it does mean is that he will sustain us through that

Jay: 00:50:53

and he will give us the grace.

Jay: 00:50:55

And the, and the strength and the peace and the joy, all

Jay: 00:50:59

supernatural all from him.

Jay: 00:51:03

Hardest,

Jay: 00:51:07

hardest.

Jay: 00:51:08

And.

Jay: 00:51:11

That's such an awesome answer.

Jay: 00:51:12

And even as you were talking I was thinking there may be people that go, you

Jay: 00:51:17

know, I've tried this, I've tried that and, and nothing has brought the hope.

Jay: 00:51:22

Nothing has brought the healing.

Jay: 00:51:24

I'm still, I'm, I'm suffocating.

Jay: 00:51:26

I'm stuck in the quick sand of life and maybe it's not suicide.

Jay: 00:51:29

Maybe it's a marital issue.

Jay: 00:51:31

Maybe it's a health issue.

Jay: 00:51:32

Maybe it's a financial issue.

Jay: 00:51:33

Maybe it's a career issue.

Jay: 00:51:34

I, I don't.

Jay: 00:51:36

And I think about the story about the, the lady in her case

Jay: 00:51:39

it was a medical issue and she'd spent all the money that she had.

Jay: 00:51:43

She went to the doctors, she'd seen the best that she could afford.

Jay: 00:51:47

And matter of fact, according to the story in the Bible, her situation, not only

Jay: 00:51:50

didn't get better, but it got worse, but God even utilized her pain, her suffer.

Jay: 00:51:57

As a tool to help her recognize that she couldn't do it on her

Jay: 00:52:00

own that she couldn't part, part, part the sea on her own that she

Jay: 00:52:04

couldn't, that, that she needed help.

Jay: 00:52:06

And because of that, she was able to come to Christ and not only was she healed,

Jay: 00:52:11

but her life was instantaneously changed.

Jay: 00:52:13

And now here it is 2000 years later and, and people are still

Jay: 00:52:16

talking about her as I am right now.

Jay: 00:52:18

So maybe even for someone that's listening, that goes, yeah.

Jay: 00:52:22

You know, that sounds good.

Jay: 00:52:24

I don't know if that works for me.

Jay: 00:52:26

Nothing else has worked well, just maybe just maybe God has allowed you.

Jay: 00:52:32

And I didn't say cause, but maybe God has allowed you to come to the place where you

Jay: 00:52:36

are so that you could recognize that he is not a answer, but he's the only answer.

Jay: 00:52:42

And that knowing him and to beginning a relationship with him is just as simple as

Jay: 00:52:48

your willingness to call out to him and to invite him in your life and surrender to.

Jay: 00:52:53

It's not a matter of just of words, but a matter of saying, Jesus, I need you.

Jay: 00:52:57

I want you in my life.

Jay: 00:52:59

And obviously.

Jay: 00:53:01

What he can do is so obvious Kayla through your life.

Jay: 00:53:05

I'm so grateful today to have you on the podcast.

Jay: 00:53:07

Your story is truly, I mean, honestly, it's phenomenal.

Jay: 00:53:10

I have so much respect for, even though you, and I've never met face to face.

Jay: 00:53:14

I have so much respect for how you've handled the situation

Jay: 00:53:16

for what you're going through.

Jay: 00:53:18

And I have so much respect for how you're using your pain as a

Jay: 00:53:20

platform to help other people.

Jay: 00:53:22

And I know ultimately that that's what God would have you to do.

Jay: 00:53:25

He would.

Jay: 00:53:25

Have you to take what you've been through to help rescue others.

Jay: 00:53:29

I want you to know.

Jay: 00:53:29

And I mean, it, I really mean it with a depth to my heart that I'm gonna

Jay: 00:53:33

be praying for you and for what it's worth and, and for your three boys.

Jay: 00:53:36

I know God has great things ahead for you.

Jay: 00:53:39

I want our listeners to have the ability to connect with you.

Jay: 00:53:43

I mentioned earlier, you've got a book called fear going wild.

Jay: 00:53:45

You've got another book coming out, rebuilding beautiful.

Jay: 00:53:47

Kayla, how can people reach out to you and get a copy of your first

Jay: 00:53:51

book and, and your upcoming book?

Jay: 00:53:53

Remind.

Jay: 00:53:55

Yeah.

Jay: 00:53:55

The best place to connect with on social media, I'm Instagram

Jay: 00:54:10

also be available, you know, local bookstores too.

Jay: 00:54:13

So those are the best places

Jay: 00:54:16

and Kayla on, on Instagram, is it, is it Kayla your full, last name?

Jay: 00:54:22

No, it's just stack S T E C K

Jay: 00:54:27

S T.

Jay: 00:54:27

Well, I'll tell you what I'm gonna, I'm gonna start I'm I'm literally

Jay: 00:54:30

on my phone at this minute, cause I wanna start following you myself.

Jay: 00:54:34

And tell me, tell me again, our listeners.

Jay: 00:54:35

I couldn't hear you clearly.

Jay: 00:54:36

It's K a Y L a.

Jay: 00:54:38

What?

Jay: 00:54:39

Spell

Jay: 00:54:39

it for us.

Jay: 00:54:41

S T E C

Jay: 00:54:43

K.

Jay: 00:54:44

Awesome.

Jay: 00:54:45

Kayla, thank you so much today for.

Jay: 00:54:48

For taking your time to be on this podcast and thank you for for what you're

Jay: 00:54:52

doing for the kingdom much respect to you and, and just know that God's gonna

Jay: 00:54:56

continue to do great things in your life.

Jay: 00:54:58

Thank you so much.