Sex, Lies, Greed and Church Leaders
Jay sits down with long time friend and Pastor, Jerry Royal, to discuss how sex, lies, and greed seem to be running through Church leaders. Is the ministry full of frauds? What happens after a Church leader messes up? Does the punishment fit the crime? Jay and Jerry answer these questions and more.
Transcript
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Speaker:Welcome to this week's edition of taboo.
Speaker:Talk with Jay louder.
Speaker:I am so excited about this week's guest.
Speaker:He's a long time friend of mine.
Speaker:He's been in ministry for, gosh, I don't know, a couple of decades just
Speaker:a, a faithful guy that loves the Lord has been a true friend of me.
Speaker:Matter of fact.
Speaker:In my early days of ministry, when very few people would give me an opportunity
Speaker:to preach this man believed in the call on my life and, and gave me opportunities.
Speaker:My good friend, Jerry Royal, Jerry welcomed the podcast today, Jay.
Speaker:Good to be here.
Speaker:Yeah, Jerry and I were just talking I know a lot of, you know, that
Speaker:obviously I'm, I'm big into hunting and fishing and Jerry just got
Speaker:back from a great trip in Colorado.
Speaker:For those of you that are Fishman you, you would understand what a big deal it is.
Speaker:Jerry landed a 22 inch rainbow, and we were just in my office looking
Speaker:at pictures and while I'm extremely happy for him, I'm I'm super jealous.
Speaker:Matter of fact, Jerry, I think not only did you catch a fish, but,
Speaker:but Mary caught a nice fish as.
Speaker:We caught several that was at least a 22 inch.
Speaker:The guide tells me could have been 26.
Speaker:So I won't be a liar.
Speaker:I know it was 22 based on the guide.
Speaker:He said, this was in Southern Colorado.
Speaker:He said that was the best drought of the season.
Speaker:And I said, well, it was my first tr ever.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:I'll take that.
Speaker:Yeah, I guess you will.
Speaker:I, I was telling Jerry when we were together, of course I miss.
Speaker:And I were a matter of fact, we're trout fishing three weeks ago, but a
Speaker:lot of people fished their whole life and never catch a fish like that.
Speaker:And I was telling Jerry that man, he ought get this thing.
Speaker:He oughta get a replica made because chances are, he may never
Speaker:catch another one like that.
Speaker:Again, like I'm.
Speaker:Goes to my wall.
Speaker:Well, yeah, I don't blame you, man.
Speaker:I do it for sure.
Speaker:Well, this week we're gonna talk about sex life and greed in today's church.
Speaker:And matter of fact, Jerry, earlier today, you may have seen this.
Speaker:I was shocked.
Speaker:It was national news, but there's a Bishop out of Brooklyn, New York.
Speaker:I actually got to see the video that's available.
Speaker:, but there's a Bishop that during a church service, two guys came
Speaker:in and stole $1 million worth of jewelry that he was wearing.
Speaker:Now, personally, I've never met a preacher that's wearing a million
Speaker:dollars worth of jewelry, but I just thought it was ironic that.
Speaker:Here today, this was national news.
Speaker:Matter of fact, there's a people, a couple people that criticized him on
Speaker:some social media platforms and he's, he's suing him for $20 million, but I
Speaker:thought, what is the church coming to?
Speaker:And I thought it's really a great lead in to what we're talking about today.
Speaker:What's the church coming to when you have.
Speaker:bishops, preachers, pastors, whatever that are wearing a million dollars
Speaker:worth of jewelry to begin with, to preach a Sunday morning sermon.
Speaker:Huh?
Speaker:Just absolutely crazy.
Speaker:But anyway Jerry, what, I, I'll be curious, you know, you've
Speaker:been in how, how many years has it you've been in ministry now?
Speaker:This is 35 years.
Speaker:Wow.
Speaker:And those that's been in three different churches and the last 29 years.
Speaker:at current church, first Baptist and two other churches as youth pastor.
Speaker:And then the last of the 29 years of my current church, the last 14 now have
Speaker:been as executive pastor previously.
Speaker:I was in student ministry for 20, 25 years.
Speaker:Well, I mean, you've been in ministry obviously a long time and you've
Speaker:filled several different roles and.
Speaker:No doubt being in ministry, as long as you have.
Speaker:I mean, you're like me, there's not much that'll surprise you anymore.
Speaker:You've seen a lot of things happen, but I just wonder in your opinion, it seems
Speaker:to me, and I'd be curious if you agree.
Speaker:It seems to me that.
Speaker:and, and there's always been obviously issues in the church because the
Speaker:church is made up of imperfect people.
Speaker:And as the old saying goes, it's kind of a colloquialism, but if
Speaker:you find the perfect church, don't join it because you'll mess it up.
Speaker:And I get that, but it seems to me that here, as of late, there have been
Speaker:more indiscretions, whether that be financial, whether that be sexual,
Speaker:it just seems to me that there has.
Speaker:it's just been more prevalent that we've seen leadership and people in
Speaker:positions of leadership following.
Speaker:Do you agree to that?
Speaker:Well, certainly it's more publicized, there's more access to knowledge today.
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:In 35 years of ministry, I was thinking about this and getting
Speaker:ready for our time of day.
Speaker:I have I've known numerous people that have had a moral failure
Speaker:of some kind, whether it was stealing money from the church.
Speaker:Something sexually.
Speaker:I don't know if it's more prevalent.
Speaker:It's obviously more discussed, but it's it's alarming is it's it, it does
Speaker:seem to be everywhere, but it, in my know, in 35 years of ministry, it's
Speaker:always been I think the word would be somebody asked me the other day,
Speaker:maybe it was, you said, is there Mor is there corruption in the church?
Speaker:you have to define that term.
Speaker:Again, my experience only in 35 years of ministry, I've never intentionally known
Speaker:of anyone who came into the church as a minister or a pastor with the intention
Speaker:of stealing or committing a moral sin.
Speaker:Now I've known many that have.
Speaker:, because the devil's alive and real sin is tempting.
Speaker:So to answer your question, I don't know if there's more than ever before, and
Speaker:I certainly have never known anybody that said I'm going in the ministry to
Speaker:harm still kill ill, commit sexual sin.
Speaker:It does happen though.
Speaker:Yeah, it does.
Speaker:And then never to justify it, but to say there are plenty people in the
Speaker:ministry, maybe this is the way of saying.
Speaker:I've known of, or known numerous people that have failed in the ministry.
Speaker:I never have known anybody that walked in as a fraud, if that makes sense.
Speaker:You know and, and I've known numerous people that either worked on the staff I
Speaker:served at, or they've come to me after a moral failure and they feel worse than.
Speaker:They, they are failures.
Speaker:They have have failed rather, but they weren't fraud.
Speaker:I think I, I, I wouldn't even consider them hypocrites.
Speaker:I'd say you're like king David, you had a terrible moral failure in your life.
Speaker:Of course, a thousand years later, Jesus would say he was a man after God's own
Speaker:heart, as opposed to the Pharisees.
Speaker:He'd say you guys are frauds.
Speaker:And I think sometimes We wanna lump it all together and probably leads
Speaker:to what you're gonna talk about as far as, how do you restore somebody?
Speaker:I think one of the ways you restore somebody is if you're the person who's
Speaker:trying to restore somebody back to health and ministry, you have to ask
Speaker:the question, is it, is this person a fraud here then I'm, I'm gonna have
Speaker:nothing to do with them or have they had a moral failure with the desire to rep.
Speaker:And be restored.
Speaker:Well, I think you handle those totally differently as well.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Well, and I think you make a great distinction between a fraud and a failure,
Speaker:a fraud, obviously being somebody that is intentionally willfully, maybe even
Speaker:beforehand, going into a situation with an intention of doing wrong.
Speaker:Correct.
Speaker:And as you said, a failure is simply nothing more than just a mistake.
Speaker:And of course I've been in ministry a long time as well.
Speaker:And, and matter of fact I contacted a.
Speaker:A guy that I know that experienced a moral failure, of course.
Speaker:And of course, lemme just back up and say, Jerry and I by no means are throwing
Speaker:stones at anybody by any stretch.
Speaker:And Jerry and I both know when we've talked about this by the grace of
Speaker:God, we, we haven't experienced this in our personal life, but
Speaker:we know we're not above it.
Speaker:And we know the scripture says that anybody who.
Speaker:Thinks that are above something better take he, because they're
Speaker:most likely the next person to fail.
Speaker:So today's podcast is by no means looking at throwing at stones at anybody.
Speaker:The, the church already does good enough at bearing and shooting at their wounded.
Speaker:But, but I do love the, the distinction because the difference in a fraud and
Speaker:a failure to me goes back to motive.
Speaker:And I think you make an important point too, about.
Speaker:Maybe it really isn't more prevalent, but maybe it seems that way simply
Speaker:because of, as you mentioned, the ability to disseminate information
Speaker:because of technology now with social media and back in the day, you know,
Speaker:you had the news at five o'clock or 10 o'clock and that's all you had, but you
Speaker:look at really, I mean, just even this.
Speaker:I think about there was a podcast.
Speaker:I won't mention his name, but a very well known Jerry.
Speaker:I know, you know what I'm talking about?
Speaker:Extremely well known preacher out of the Midwest and a podcast came
Speaker:out about him and his ministry.
Speaker:He.
Speaker:And it was one of the most popular podcasts that had been on this year.
Speaker:Just kind of talking a lot of people felt like he abused his leadership position
Speaker:eventually was was left a church that he started in the, in the Washington area.
Speaker:And is now kind of the outskirts of ministry.
Speaker:I think also about discovery not long ago, did an expose on the hill song church.
Speaker:Did you watch that Jerry by chance?
Speaker:Seen bits and pieces of it.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I mean, it's just devastating to see what what's happened there.
Speaker:And some of the, the failures and the leadership resigning
Speaker:and how it's affected hill song.
Speaker:Again, you, you have a story that even I mentioned today, so, and
Speaker:then on top of that, and Jerry, you and I have talked about this.
Speaker:Even in the Southern Baptist convention, this report that came out.
Speaker:So when you look at this podcast, when you look at the, the series
Speaker:that discovery did, when you look at this expose, I guess, or this report
Speaker:that came out exposing some and some cases sweeping under the rug,
Speaker:some really not serious mistakes or failures, but really crimes mm-hmm
Speaker:And, and, and, and the truth of the matter is, you know, people will say, well, the
Speaker:problem is that we have our eyes on people and we need to have our eyes on Christ.
Speaker:And that's real easy to say, but the reality is is that while yeah,
Speaker:we should have our eyes on Christ.
Speaker:We can't help, but look to leadership because that's what leadership does.
Speaker:There are people in positions of authority, where we look to
Speaker:them, we look to them for guidance and we look to them for wisdom.
Speaker:So even though that's a true statement, I don't know how realistic
Speaker:it is to be able to not be hurt or let down by leadership positions.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And the new Testament makes it very clear for those who assume the role
Speaker:of some kind of a pastoral role.
Speaker:and there's numerous pastoral roles in a church.
Speaker:Well, there's a higher standard than for everybody else.
Speaker:There's no question.
Speaker:First, Timothy three, two Titus.
Speaker:As if for that James one says, don't be eager to assume that row a leader
Speaker:you'll be held to a higher standard.
Speaker:And that I, I believe that's not just God's higher standard.
Speaker:That's men's higher standard.
Speaker:A person should be very, even cautious, careful going into that pastoral
Speaker:ministry role because the new Testament holds him to a higher standard.
Speaker:And so, and partly because you know those who follow someone spiritually it's
Speaker:natural, normal to expect more of them.
Speaker:You're you're following them a, Our leader's gotta be above the.
Speaker:. And so there there's, there's it, it's part of the, those of us who have been
Speaker:in ministry assume that responsibility.
Speaker:And if there is a failure in that person's life, you have to assume the consequences
Speaker:of it, cuz it is natural, normal too.
Speaker:And the new Testament calls a, a pastor to higher standard.
Speaker:And and, and I think sometimes.
Speaker:Those in ministry have forgotten that because we want to correctly state that
Speaker:all Christians are in the ministry.
Speaker:That is a fact, that's a second Corinthians fact, but that
Speaker:does not mean all Christians are in the pastoral ministry.
Speaker:And there's a distinction in the new Testament.
Speaker:Paul Paul made the distinction, he would say he would use the
Speaker:pronouns us and you are talking about he and his pastoral staff.
Speaker:And you as the congregation are those in the, the pew, so to speak.
Speaker:And so there's, there's clearly a distinction in the new Testament
Speaker:and everybody has to assume.
Speaker:And there's really nothing in some ways more tragic for the body of Christ
Speaker:for the kingdom, for the church than when a leader has a clear violation of
Speaker:the new Testament, pastoral standard.
Speaker:It's just, it's what it is.
Speaker:Now that being said goes back to, well, was this person a, a failure
Speaker:who can be restored back to ministry?
Speaker:Or is this a person of fraud who should be exposed and say, this person
Speaker:should never be back in the ministry.
Speaker:That that's where wisdom dictates what kind of person this was, but
Speaker:there's nothing more tragic in many ways than, than a leader who has
Speaker:abused that position and really, really morally failed stolen money.
Speaker:You know, sexually done something.
Speaker:That's a tragic, it's a tragedy.
Speaker:Well, and, and I, I appreciate what you said because obviously
Speaker:the scripture teaches this, that to whom much is given much is required.
Speaker:And so the greater, the position of leadership, mm-hmm, the more
Speaker:accountability that goes with it, but also like what you said about, and I
Speaker:think it's an important point and I don't wanna dovetail too far off on this,
Speaker:but I do think it's an important point.
Speaker:You said that all Christians are in ministry and, and,
Speaker:and even though that's not.
Speaker:Today's podcast.
Speaker:I think it's an important point.
Speaker:I know there have been seasons in my life where people have said to me,
Speaker:well, you know, Jay, you're a preacher.
Speaker:So therefore, while I, I should be able to do blank, you shouldn't be able to do it.
Speaker:And, and there, as you said, there is a distinction.
Speaker:There is greater a degree of accountability, but it's important that.
Speaker:We all hold ourselves to a higher standard.
Speaker:It that, yes, a person that's a pastor, an evangelist a leader in the church.
Speaker:Of course, people are gonna watch their actions and the repercussions
Speaker:of them making mistakes.
Speaker:Obviously.
Speaker:The wake of that is certainly greater, but to look at people in positions of,
Speaker:of leadership and to while holding them to a high standard doesn't mean that at
Speaker:the same time, we as believers that are lay people in the church, don't need to.
Speaker:Do some self-evaluation and make sure that we're living up to a standard.
Speaker:One of the things Jerry, you and I talked about a few weeks ago.
Speaker:Matter of fact, I remember I was on my way home.
Speaker:I don't, I won't mention his name, but there was a very influential
Speaker:man that, that we both know.
Speaker:And matter of fact, I, I think he's a.
Speaker:I, I do think he's a good man.
Speaker:I really do.
Speaker:I did a podcast with him about a year ago.
Speaker:He's a very influential man who I believe with all my heart has
Speaker:been very effective in ministry.
Speaker:I believe that a lot of people's lives had been a, had been changed as a
Speaker:result of his ministry and his life.
Speaker:And there was a situation that certainly some mistakes were made.
Speaker:It didn't end up into a full blown affair, but some, some lines were
Speaker:blurred and some lines were crossed.
Speaker:And again, without mentioning in his.
Speaker:I feel like in, in my opinion that the, the, the punishment
Speaker:does not fit the crime.
Speaker:And again, we're not talking about a situation where somebody sexually
Speaker:abused a child or raped a child.
Speaker:This was more of a situation of a, he said, she said situation that again
Speaker:did cross some boundaries, but, but did not end up into a full blown
Speaker:intercourse relationship or affair.
Speaker:I, I just wonder what your perspective is on that.
Speaker:Jerry, it seems as though, and we kind of referenced this earlier.
Speaker:It seems as though sometimes within the church, That the very
Speaker:people that we're called to love.
Speaker:I, I think about what Paul said in Corinthians where somebody was
Speaker:caught in an immoral act and, and Paul gave these recommendations
Speaker:about how that you, you, the goal is to restore this brother in love.
Speaker:And to remember while you're trying to restore him, that you must be
Speaker:cautious because you could also end up in the same predicament.
Speaker:Mm-hmm I, I just wonder what your perspective is.
Speaker:Somebody who's been in ministry for years.
Speaker:Why do you think this is that the Christian community is so quick to bury
Speaker:their wounded, to shoot them down as was the case with this influential leader
Speaker:that you and I spoke about a few weeks ago where you and I both felt like that.
Speaker:I, I mean, he's just been completely blackballed in ministry
Speaker:and it just seemed extreme.
Speaker:Why do you think that is?
Speaker:Well, human nature says, I love to make you look bad to make me look good.
Speaker:Some of that is just a simple thing of going.
Speaker:You know, I think some people glory en enjoy bringing down the church and those
Speaker:who are leading and the situation you're referring to is, yeah, we probably would
Speaker:all agree that I'm not sure that the, the punishment fit the crime there,
Speaker:cuz all sin is not the same and you shouldn't punish it all the same culture.
Speaker:Doesn't punish a traffic ticket the same way there is murder.
Speaker:That's.
Speaker:Wisdom.
Speaker:And so there are certainly cases that there's been great overreaction to the
Speaker:punishment toward that pastor minister.
Speaker:So that's, that's, that's where you and I get upset going, come on.
Speaker:He, you know, what he did was wrong and there is a level of punishment,
Speaker:but let's, don't treat him like.
Speaker:he's a rapist here.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:He's a child murder or, you know, and so that's also really my personal opinion
Speaker:is that in the new Testament, especially all sin is not treated the same.
Speaker:There's different words for different levels of sin.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:Jesus died for all sin.
Speaker:The same.
Speaker:He considers the sin of the heart as guilty as the sin.
Speaker:The action that does not mean it's to be treated the same.
Speaker:It didn't, it didn't even come from the same heart.
Speaker:I still a piece of bubble gum down the street from the convenience
Speaker:store, or I murdered somebody.
Speaker:It would be a fool that says that's the same.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And did Jesus die for that equally?
Speaker:Yes, he did.
Speaker:Does that mean the consequences or the heart behind it's the same?
Speaker:No, it's not.
Speaker:And so even when we see somebody who's a leader in the church failed moral.
Speaker:You have to consider each situation uniquely.
Speaker:And, and sometimes they, those outside the church who are gonna judge a
Speaker:church, wanna treat it all the same.
Speaker:And part of the motivation there obviously is they wanna
Speaker:bring down the church, right?
Speaker:They're looking for something, they bring down the ministry, they're looking
Speaker:for something and they take something.
Speaker:You know, I wouldn't say small, but they take something that's not, well,
Speaker:they make a, they make the punishment much greater than the crime and
Speaker:we would never do that in society.
Speaker:We know that's not right, but we do that sometimes toward those in
Speaker:the church, we go, oh my goodness.
Speaker:And, and right now what's going on is.
Speaker:is those many times outside the church are those who are in competition
Speaker:with some church, they're looking for a reason to bring it down.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:They are.
Speaker:And, and but that is no way to excuse a moral failure again,
Speaker:inside a leader of the church.
Speaker:But at the same time there has been quite we, you and I both know there's
Speaker:some overreaction going on these days.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:I mean, things that, and, and the tragedy of overreacting to something
Speaker:done wrong is when something is done terribly wrong, we create.
Speaker:Something that wasn't, as, as egregious, it actually lowers the punishment
Speaker:for something that should be severely punished, if that makes sense.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And it it's sad.
Speaker:And it's true.
Speaker:You mentioned that there are people, not only of course you, we expect
Speaker:people outside of the church to look for more ammunition for their gun to
Speaker:give reasons as to why faith is not legitimate or Christ is not legitimate.
Speaker:I get that, but what troubles me.
Speaker:How many people within the church, as you just mentioned,
Speaker:sometimes it's a jealousy factor.
Speaker:What we even see this in the life of Jesus, when pilot said, it said
Speaker:that he recognized that the religious leaders had brought Jesus out of envy.
Speaker:That that's the whole reason mm-hmm pilot even knew that even
Speaker:though he passed judgment on him.
Speaker:But again, I, I expect the outside world to do that.
Speaker:But what bothers me is when there are people.
Speaker:That are inside CDO, who also are looking for reasons to take down the bigger church
Speaker:or mm-hmm, a more well known minister.
Speaker:It it's, it's really, it's really troubling to me, but
Speaker:yet it is, it is a truth.
Speaker:Well, you and I both know we've been mentioned long enough, the, the first
Speaker:the, the, the first battle that most of us had in ministry, especially in our
Speaker:twenties and thirties was disappointment.
Speaker:No doubt disappointment with people inside the church.
Speaker:As a pastor, as a young minister of church, man, it was very troubling to
Speaker:me in my twenties and early thirties.
Speaker:When oh, I was, would be heavily scrutinized, judged for.
Speaker:You know, by people who I trusted as strong Christians, who man, it didn't seem
Speaker:to me like they were behaving that way.
Speaker:We've all been in that situation, but it it's a battle in MI for those of
Speaker:us in ministry, your first battle's always gonna be disappointment.
Speaker:And, and it, maybe it's gonna be disappointment toward people in
Speaker:the church, mean older people.
Speaker:It's disappointment toward maybe one of the pastors you work for who
Speaker:you went, man, that guy certainly there's a lot of flaws in him.
Speaker:and, and then of course, then that gets, that gets tempered later on in life.
Speaker:When now I'm an older leader and I promise you, I've disappointed people.
Speaker:, I've been on both ends of that stick and you just go, Hey, you know what?
Speaker:In the church, all of us can have the best intentions in the world.
Speaker:There are gonna be people that disappoint us and that we disappoint.
Speaker:And of course in the second battle, always can be inside of church is
Speaker:discouragement, you know, disappointment.
Speaker:At other people in the church later on, it becomes discouragement.
Speaker:Most guys get, you know, you know, this Jay most guys today who are getting
Speaker:out of the ministry and it is, that's also epidemic today of there's certain
Speaker:numbers saying upwards to a thousand men and women who are in vocational ministry
Speaker:per month since COVID are getting out.
Speaker:Wow.
Speaker:I didn't know that number one reason is not a moral failure.
Speaker:It's not sexual, it's not stealing.
Speaker:Number one reasons.
Speaker:Discourage.
Speaker:and we all know that if you've been in ministry for any bit of time,
Speaker:you've had to deal with the Demonn of disappointment and the Demonn of
Speaker:discouragement, because the devil's goal is to get you out of God's work.
Speaker:That is the devil's goal.
Speaker:His goal in for your ministry is to get you out of that thing, because at
Speaker:some level, all of us have a little level of effectiness and he hates.
Speaker:Now he can get you out of the ministry through a moral failure.
Speaker:Most people do not get outta the ministry for moral failures.
Speaker:I've, I've actually known many, many people that have
Speaker:gotten outta the ministry.
Speaker:Very few for moral failures, almost every single one of 'em say, I
Speaker:can't deal with the discouragement, depression, disappointments, the attacks
Speaker:that you get out for that reason.
Speaker:Well, that's the fact, man.
Speaker:I, I wish our listeners could, could see.
Speaker:the smile on my face, just because, and Jerry and I didn't talk about this before
Speaker:today's podcast, but Jerry just told.
Speaker:Just opened my book.
Speaker:I mean, and, and what you said, Jerry's so true.
Speaker:I think about my early days, my initial disappointment was with church people
Speaker:because when I got saved, I thought everybody was gonna be behind me and
Speaker:in my corner mm-hmm and I found that.
Speaker:The people that I left at the rock in bar on Scott street, after I got
Speaker:saved, would run into him and say, man, Jay, you know, I heard about you, man.
Speaker:I wish you the best.
Speaker:And then there were people inside the church, especially when God
Speaker:started opening doors in my life that were like, well, He, he, he
Speaker:hasn't been to Bible college and he hasn't been a Christian very long.
Speaker:And why is he getting to go speak here?
Speaker:And why is he getting to go speak there?
Speaker:And why is God seeming to do things in his life?
Speaker:And it seemed odd that some of the most encouragement that I received was from
Speaker:people who actually were non-believers.
Speaker:And so this first thing that you mentioned disappointment was there and.
Speaker:The second thing, discouragement.
Speaker:I mean, you hit the nail in the head, man.
Speaker:I went to work for a ministry and, and I saw some things there that
Speaker:that, that, that, that bothered me.
Speaker:And then I found that sometimes I didn't feel I was as effective as I wanted to be.
Speaker:And then there was always plenty of people who.
Speaker:We called him the cold water committee back in those days, just people that would
Speaker:discourage you or always finding fault, nothing, major, just little things, but
Speaker:man, you just, you just read my book there and, and I, I, I agree with you.
Speaker:I mean, I also know a lot of people over the years that have left ministry.
Speaker:Obviously I know people that have left for both reasons.
Speaker:Matter of fact, I remember, you know, talking about moral failures
Speaker:and, and, and different reasons that people do leave ministry.
Speaker:There was a time when I, there was a guy that that I traveled with and I'm,
Speaker:I'm not saying it's the most appropriate way to refer to women by any stretch,
Speaker:but understood the point he was making.
Speaker:And he said, Jay, you new in ministry?
Speaker:He said, there's two things you gotta watch out for.
Speaker:He said it's chicks and checks.
Speaker:Mm-hmm and obviously he wasn't trying to be derogatory towards women.
Speaker:He was just trying to make a point that of his years in ministry, where
Speaker:he saw the most common failure was a man who got things out of a line.
Speaker:sexually with, with a, with a woman or a man who got too focused on money.
Speaker:Of course, I would add a third one after being in ministry for years.
Speaker:And I think it's it it's, it's sexual temptation money temptation.
Speaker:And I think the third one's pride, but man, I love what
Speaker:you said because it is true.
Speaker:And that's not just for people in ministry.
Speaker:I mean, there's people listening to this podcast today and Jerry
Speaker:that they used to go to church and they don't go anymore because they
Speaker:felt that they were betrayed or.
Speaker:There was some issue within the church or maybe their pastor left or, or
Speaker:maybe their youth minister was not who he said he was supposed to be.
Speaker:And they said, you know what?
Speaker:They're all a bunch of hypocrites and I'm not, I mean, I've met at
Speaker:multitudes of people like that, Jerry and I, I know you have as well.
Speaker:Well, and, and I would go back and say the same thing that's true for people
Speaker:in the ministry is true for people.
Speaker:The congregants is the devil wants them out.
Speaker:Those in the ministry, the devil wants you out of the ministry,
Speaker:cuz you can be effective.
Speaker:The person in the congregation, he wants that he wants you outta the church.
Speaker:So, and I would tell you my experience and, and, and in our church, I, I
Speaker:oversee a staff of, you know, more than a dozen pastors, another 50, 60 folks.
Speaker:No question.
Speaker:The biggest.
Speaker:Battle is disappointment.
Speaker:I would actually add a D if you will.
Speaker:It's disappointment, discouragement, depression.
Speaker:There's no question again.
Speaker:It's to me, our experience has been it's rare, although it does happen a
Speaker:moral failure in, in every church I've been in, there's been a moral failure
Speaker:from a pastor, either stealing money or doing something sexually wrong.
Speaker:But the real day to day battle is typically not that because the
Speaker:people I've experienced in 35 years of ministry are above for the most.
Speaker:Sexual failures and money failures, but they are not above being disappointed
Speaker:in being discouraged, being depressed.
Speaker:And that's when they go, I've gotta get away from this happens all the time.
Speaker:And I think it happens same thing with people in the church.
Speaker:Man, I'm just so disappointed with the way my church is doing thing or the leadership
Speaker:didn't they were not to my standard.
Speaker:And I'm just so discouraged around here.
Speaker:Nobody's encouraging me.
Speaker:Well, the devil uses all that over time.
Speaker:They're like I'm out this place and Yeah, that that's, I, you know, we,
Speaker:we talk about these matters and I, I can, I just think that so much of these
Speaker:things, even talking about man, all these things that are happening at church
Speaker:is, well, they're disappointing to you.
Speaker:Well, a lot of people can't rise above that and go, okay.
Speaker:It is disappointing and it is discouraging.
Speaker:I'm depressed about it, but we're gonna rise above this.
Speaker:You know, the church is still gonna be the church.
Speaker:And I'm still gonna walk with the Lord and serve him.
Speaker:You know, my, my story is I got saved at 15 years old and the heroes in my
Speaker:life were my youth pastor and my senior pastor and seminary student in Fort
Speaker:worth where I was, who discipled me.
Speaker:I got called a ministry at 16 years old.
Speaker:And my only vision of ministers were those three people.
Speaker:Well, it was stunning to me when I'm 23, 24, 25, starting up.
Speaker:When the people I'm working around staff at the churches, at least in my
Speaker:viewpoint, they were not like those men.
Speaker:It's hard to take.
Speaker:It's very disappointing.
Speaker:It's incredibly disappointing.
Speaker:You've heard me say this, and this is just my phrase and it could be wrong.
Speaker:But my experience with 35 years of ministry is the best people.
Speaker:And maybe the worst people I've ever met in my life are both in the.
Speaker:it breeds that.
Speaker:And so we just have to accept that and say, I hope I'm not, I
Speaker:hope I'm never, someone's worst person they know in the ministry.
Speaker:I hope I am someone's if you will, best person, they know, but
Speaker:you're what you said while goes very true that any of us can fail.
Speaker:I know people a lot better than me, spiritually earned ministry
Speaker:that have failed in some way.
Speaker:And I promise you there's people in 35 years of ministry that could walk up to
Speaker:me and say, Jerry Royal, you're probably with a disappointment to me or to my
Speaker:kid and I'd be going, I'm so sorry.
Speaker:I never intended that.
Speaker:Matter of fact, it breaks my heart to hear that, but I promise you those
Speaker:kind of people, so it's gonna happen.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:It's gonna happen.
Speaker:It's like a family, you know what, one day my kid's gonna be in counseling
Speaker:going, I know mom and dad tried hard, but , they really disappointed me.
Speaker:And I'd say, you know what?
Speaker:You are correct.
Speaker:And but I never intended to.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And I think that's it.
Speaker:Now, if I intended to that's different.
Speaker:That's different.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Motive.
Speaker:That's different.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:If I hurt my kid and I intended to, I beat 'em and did something, I should be in
Speaker:jail but if I unintentionally just hurt their heart, cuz I was disappointment.
Speaker:That's different.
Speaker:Same thing to church.
Speaker:There is definitely gonna be times that I go, man, I be you.
Speaker:I did disappoint that family or that person, or, you
Speaker:know, they saw me get angry.
Speaker:They saw me and my wife in an argument at Walmart.
Speaker:You know, they man, my kids don't walk on water.
Speaker:Like they thought they would, you know, and that's just gonna happen
Speaker:and that, and we have to accept that reality in, in life, in ministry.
Speaker:Again, that's different.
Speaker:That's not somebody.
Speaker:Out there, you know, intentionally harming someone in the church or the
Speaker:church is whole that's definitely, but all of us are failures to some level.
Speaker:No doubt are we, we are.
Speaker:And I, I think the whole premise is, like you said, it's a, it's a matter
Speaker:of something being willful or not.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And like you, I mean, obviously as long as I've been in ministry, I'm sure there
Speaker:are people that would say The biggest turn off to Jesus I've ever met is Jay louder.
Speaker:And I, I hate that and I sure, obviously I'm trying to do everything.
Speaker:I can, I certainly make a lot of mistakes, but I'm trying to be a good example.
Speaker:And, and, and obviously there's days I fail.
Speaker:Matter of fact, it reminds me a few years ago, quite a few years ago.
Speaker:At that time, matter of fact, we just had two kids, but.
Speaker:That's back in the day, Jerry, when Walmart had greeters.
Speaker:And so there was this older guy, we always went late at night.
Speaker:To be honest with you, mostly because we were broken, we
Speaker:didn't have anything else to do.
Speaker:We'd go to Walmart late at night, but there was this older gentleman
Speaker:who was a greeter who checked your receipt when you walked out the door
Speaker:and I'd seen this guy over a time span of about two years, maybe longer.
Speaker:And so one day and you know, the truth of it is my kids were
Speaker:young and I mean there's times.
Speaker:I'm sure there were beatings that took place at Walmart late at night.
Speaker:And I'm sure there were times that I was frustrated mm-hmm and anyway,
Speaker:we were walking out one night and the guy checked my receipt and
Speaker:he said, have a good night, Jay.
Speaker:Well, he'd never called me by my name ever.
Speaker:And so I turned around and I said, excuse me.
Speaker:He said, Jay, I was just telling you to have a good night.
Speaker:And I said, how do you know my name?
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:He said, oh Jay, I know who you.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:And he said, I I've seen you on TV.
Speaker:I, I know you're a preacher.
Speaker:I said, man, we've been walking out this door for, we've been seeing
Speaker:you for two or three years, man.
Speaker:Why did, why have you never spoken before and told me you knew who I was and this is
Speaker:what he said, Jerry, I'll never forget it.
Speaker:He said, cuz I didn't want you to know cuz I wanted to see if you were
Speaker:the real deal mm-hmm and man, I'm telling you it made my skin crawl.
Speaker:You know, I, I, I, I told Missy when we were walking out the door, I said, man, I.
Speaker:You know, who knows?
Speaker:I, I, I hope I've been a good example, but I'm sure there were nights.
Speaker:I was in a bad mood and was gruff.
Speaker:When I walked out the door, there may have been nights.
Speaker:I was fussing at the kids and, but it was just a reminder of
Speaker:what we're talking about is Jay.
Speaker:You're not never gonna be perfect.
Speaker:You're never gonna be sinless, but do everything you possibly can not to be
Speaker:somebody's dis disappointment, not to be somebody else's reason to discount
Speaker:Christ or your faith, or for somebody to say, I don't want anything to do with
Speaker:Jesus because I met Jay louder again.
Speaker:I'm sure there are people regrettably, that can say that about me, but.
Speaker:God knows my heart.
Speaker:And we've talked about this.
Speaker:You and I are not, we, we both know that we are men who can make mistakes.
Speaker:We we're, we're not looking down on anybody.
Speaker:Matter of fact, every single pastor that I've ever known, that's
Speaker:fallen due to a moral failure.
Speaker:Every one of 'em I personally called them not to lecture them.
Speaker:Not to quote verse to him, just to say, man, I love you.
Speaker:And I'm praying for you not to get details on what happened.
Speaker:And I, and I think that's our, our responsibility.
Speaker:And you mentioned something too, Jerry, about you didn't go into
Speaker:detail, but I, I think it's important.
Speaker:And I think that listeners need to realize this while it's very easy
Speaker:to criticize when a leader falls.
Speaker:It's also important to remember that while you might think that a person
Speaker:in a leadership position like Jerry doesn't have troubles, Jerry would
Speaker:probably be the first to tell you he might have more troubles than you
Speaker:do because the enemy seeks after.
Speaker:People like Jerry people in leadership positions, because if he can tear Jerry
Speaker:down, the, the, the, the collateral damage of that is significant.
Speaker:So sometimes people in leadership positions fall because they're
Speaker:under a greater degree of, of duress from the forces of darkness.
Speaker:And I think, I think that's important to remember.
Speaker:Well, yeah, if you know the scripture, that's, there's not question.
Speaker:I mean, the, the enemy only has so many forces.
Speaker:Well, he's gonna put him in on the.
Speaker:Effective people.
Speaker:If I'm going to war with you, I, I want to kill the general more
Speaker:than I wanna kill the private.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:That's just a fact.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I can scatter the privates.
Speaker:I, if I can kill the lead and, and you, you know, the, the, the made, think
Speaker:about this when we were talking a while ago that I relate so much to family, my
Speaker:other, other, but so much of my ministry through the years has been to, to
Speaker:parents and to families taste something.
Speaker:We've always told our kids.
Speaker:I have four kids.
Speaker:What 12 to 24.
Speaker:I said your mom and dad are not phonies.
Speaker:Meaning we love Jesus.
Speaker:We're not putting on here.
Speaker:We love Jesus.
Speaker:Not because I'm in the ministry, but because we're
Speaker:Christians, we're not phonies.
Speaker:We love Jesus, but we're not perfect.
Speaker:We're gonna fail.
Speaker:My kids have been to accept that.
Speaker:Now, if we're phonies, if I'm faking our love for Jesus, because of my job at
Speaker:church, kids will smell that a mile away.
Speaker:That's right.
Speaker:You talk about disappointment.
Speaker:but my kids can handle the fact that mom and dad fight and argue and, and
Speaker:dad gets angry and But they can't handle if they did, but at the end of the day,
Speaker:my kids go, those people love Jesus.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:They're doing this for a job.
Speaker:You know, the miracle , this is, this is game to me, Jay.
Speaker:The miracle in in our homes is in my case that my wife lives with me, the
Speaker:pastor, and she still loves Jesus.
Speaker:Amen to that.
Speaker:Amen to that brother, you know you know, she knows my flaws and failures and
Speaker:goes, you know, you're my husband, you are a pastor at my church and I, I am
Speaker:following your leadership spiritually, but you ain't perfect brother.
Speaker:And so I couldn't handle that pressured home, but, but a do
Speaker:love Jesus and they know that.
Speaker:I'll tell you something interesting, Jay I've, I've known several
Speaker:people that I've, I've walked through their moral failure with.
Speaker:I walked through the moral failure with them because number
Speaker:one, I knew they did love Jesus.
Speaker:They're not a fraud, they're a failure.
Speaker:And now let's see if we can work, help you work through your failure
Speaker:to have a, a ministry one day.
Speaker:And they do.
Speaker:Now, if, if I, if I feel like a guy's a guys of fraud and he's
Speaker:faking this stuff, I'm not meeting.
Speaker:I'm like, dude, you just got exposed.
Speaker:All happened to you and you shouldn't be near the ministry, but if there's
Speaker:men and they, in my case, the guys that we've helped through, I said, I I'm gonna
Speaker:trust your heart that you love Jesus.
Speaker:You're called to ministry.
Speaker:You had a failure.
Speaker:Matter of fact, some of the guys, you and I have talked about recently and we
Speaker:go, I promise that guy loves the Lord.
Speaker:No doubt.
Speaker:And I promise you that man or woman and has a deep calling in her life.
Speaker:The devil took him out cuz he wants him out of the ministry.
Speaker:Now I think in those cases, if possible, if, if something's not
Speaker:been done criminally now, let let's let's let's distinguish.
Speaker:If someone's done something criminally while in the ministry, whole nother ball
Speaker:game, it's a whole nother ball game.
Speaker:You should be out the rest of your life.
Speaker:You should never be back.
Speaker:If it done something to a child or to a teenager, anything criminal, a.
Speaker:You're out, brother.
Speaker:I agree.
Speaker:You have, I'm not talking about that.
Speaker:I'm talking about somebody who's made a a sinful decision.
Speaker:That's cost them a particular ministry, but who God has a calling on their
Speaker:life and they want to be restored.
Speaker:There is certainly a possibility for that person.
Speaker:Probably not in that same church or ministry.
Speaker:But somewhere else down the road, if their heart is, you can
Speaker:determine, they do love Jesus.
Speaker:They have a calling on their life.
Speaker:God has used them and their life's not over because they're failure that person.
Speaker:I think that's the Galatians thing where we have responsibility.
Speaker:You mentioned Paul that's, that's a Galatians one.
Speaker:Paul's saying we have responsibility to that brothers to restore
Speaker:them being cautious of yourself.
Speaker:Don't get prideful and go, well, I never do this.
Speaker:So let me help you.
Speaker:Cuz you'll fall in the same pit.
Speaker:But I'm talking about somebody who you can restore over time.
Speaker:I think we have responsibility to restore that person every situations differently.
Speaker:Again, we're not talking about criminal stuff there.
Speaker:Criminal should go to prison for their crime.
Speaker:We're talking about somebody that We can restore.
Speaker:I think we have a responsibility to that.
Speaker:Yeah, I agree.
Speaker:And I love what you said in regards to your kids, that they see your flaws.
Speaker:They know that dad can be gripy or rude or whatever the case
Speaker:may be, but dad loves Jesus.
Speaker:And matter of fact, every single person that's ever been
Speaker:on staff here at the ministry.
Speaker:It's what I thought about immediately because I tell.
Speaker:Every single person before they get hired.
Speaker:I said, listen, I, I want to be clear up here.
Speaker:This is not a group of people.
Speaker:And our staff usually ranges somewhere between four and eight people in house.
Speaker:And another three that are on staff between Houston,
Speaker:Georgia and another state.
Speaker:And I always tell them, listen, we love the Lord here.
Speaker:Everybody loves the Lord here, but, but if, if you're given the
Speaker:opportunity to come join this team, Don't have an expectation that
Speaker:everybody around here is perfect, that everybody around here has it together.
Speaker:We have family issues that we have money issues.
Speaker:At times we have kid issues.
Speaker:At times we have personal issues at times.
Speaker:So if you're coming here thinking that everybody here is just not gonna make
Speaker:mistakes and it's just gonna be a gravy train and everything's gonna be perfect.
Speaker:Don't come to work here.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Because we are flawed people.
Speaker:We're trying to walk with the Lord.
Speaker:And I, you know, you said something earlier, Jerry, that's true.
Speaker:At some level, we're all hypocrite.
Speaker:There is some inconsistency in our life that I think all of us are working on.
Speaker:At some point, we're not talking about somebody living a Mirage, we're not
Speaker:talking about being a poser or being a complete phony or fake, but there's all
Speaker:areas of our lives that we're trying to work on, that we're trying to improve,
Speaker:that people might say, well, gosh, Jay says one thing, but he, he sure hasn't
Speaker:gotten as far as he'd like to be.
Speaker:Well, absolutely.
Speaker:I'll be honest with this.
Speaker:This is my personal understanding of scripture.
Speaker:The people that Jesus called hypocrites were not believers in him.
Speaker:I agree.
Speaker:Those were people that had rejected him and they were trying to pretend to
Speaker:be something to the people you and I fail that doesn't make us hypocrite.
Speaker:I'm not a hypocrite.
Speaker:You're not a hypocrite.
Speaker:You believe in Jesus.
Speaker:Your heart is pure toward him.
Speaker:You fail.
Speaker:And so I think sometimes we way overuse the word hypocrite.
Speaker:I think you make a great point.
Speaker:And, and I, you know, I've never heard it put that way because at times I
Speaker:do feel like a hypocrite, but I, I think you make a great point that
Speaker:technically we're not hypocrite.
Speaker:We're just believers who are flawed.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:Who are trying to, to walk.
Speaker:The holy life, but sometimes we just, we just fail.
Speaker:But as a pastor, if you do violate the new Testament standards for that pastoral.
Speaker:that's also a different matter.
Speaker:No doubt, no doubt.
Speaker:And you're not saying too.
Speaker:I know when you talk about restoring somebody, you're not talking about
Speaker:somebody that gets caught in a moral failure and they take off a
Speaker:week and they're back in the pulp.
Speaker:And I know you're not saying there is a time yes.
Speaker:Of healing accountability.
Speaker:There's a time of, of submitting leadership and seeing what
Speaker:they feel are the next steps.
Speaker:And even as you said, oftentimes it's not in the same church, so it's not
Speaker:just, okay, well, Hey, I'm sorry.
Speaker:And let's move on.
Speaker:Well, you've lost the trust of, of that church, that ministry to such a level.
Speaker:Doesn't mean your entire life at ministry's over, but it's over there.
Speaker:And that would, that's always been our approach in a church of ministry
Speaker:is that we love your brother and we're gonna help get you restored
Speaker:to another place of ministry.
Speaker:But not here.
Speaker:And I will say this, Jerry, this is something I love about you.
Speaker:I remember back in the early days when I came to Christ, if somebody made any
Speaker:mistake in ministry, and again, we're not talking about something criminal,
Speaker:but we're talking about if somebody.
Speaker:Whatever they did something that wasn't criminal, but made a mistake
Speaker:back in those days you were done for you would never ever have
Speaker:another opportunity to be involved, engaged in ministry at any level.
Speaker:And one of the things I love about you, and obviously we're not gonna go into
Speaker:any detail here, but I just know over the years there have been different people.
Speaker:That at one time, a lot of churches would've just written off and never
Speaker:given a second opportunity where you and the leadership that you serve with
Speaker:have said about different individuals.
Speaker:Hey, I know this has been an issue in the past.
Speaker:I know there's been a struggle.
Speaker:We love you.
Speaker:We believe in you and want to give you a second chance.
Speaker:And man, I truly believe that's new, new Testament Christianity.
Speaker:I so respect that rather than kicking people to the curb.
Speaker:You have a history.
Speaker:And not only that, I mean, I know people that have personally been
Speaker:underneath your ministry, that you poured into their life that have again,
Speaker:slipped and fall fallen, not intent.
Speaker:And I've never known you to throw stones at anybody.
Speaker:I've never known you to kick anybody to the curb.
Speaker:You've always been the guy and I've known you a long time.
Speaker:I've never known you to do that to anybody other than to reach out them
Speaker:and love them and try to restore them.
Speaker:And I just wish the guy, there were more people like you that did that.
Speaker:Oh, I appreciate that.
Speaker:It's, there's, there's two sides to ever coin in the sense of something
Speaker:can be wrong and we're gonna call it sin and a wrong in your life.
Speaker:And there's consequences to pay at the same time.
Speaker:There's hope for you.
Speaker:That didn't, I didn't say that.
Speaker:Well there's always a tension in every situation in there.
Speaker:No doubt.
Speaker:Every situation is not as easy as it comes across.
Speaker:It's not just, oh, this is just black and white.
Speaker:No.
Speaker:In the scripture, there's always a tension in there between two matters.
Speaker:That seem to be very opposite.
Speaker:Jesus is both man, and God God's word is both written by God and man, which is it.
Speaker:It's.
Speaker:God, a loving and a God.
Speaker:Arath, it's both.
Speaker:We would, we love in our culture to make things so easy.
Speaker:Go, well, this is the, this is what it is.
Speaker:No, not necessarily someone fell morally and they're gonna pay a price for that.
Speaker:Doesn't mean that their life of ministries over.
Speaker:Let's see if there's possible chance for restoration here and
Speaker:a new place in a new ministry.
Speaker:Again, I, I think it's and if there's not, and, and I'll tell you.
Speaker:You show grace to in people sometimes you'll get burned, no doubt.
Speaker:You will get burned and you'll have to pay a price for it going.
Speaker:We gave this person another opportunity, their second chance and, and, and
Speaker:our culture doesn't want to sometimes as tolerant as they, they wanna act
Speaker:like they are, they're not tolerant.
Speaker:And there as much they say, we give somebody a second chance.
Speaker:They fell a second time, the eggs on our face.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:It's happened to me several times where I, I wanted to believe in somebody
Speaker:and I thought they were restored and, and I vouched for their name.
Speaker:Or put him in a position and he got burned twice.
Speaker:Well, I bet you don't regret it though, because wouldn't you rather err, on
Speaker:the, the side of mercy and grace.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:Yeah, man, me too.
Speaker:It's it's like, it's like giving, I mean, might be a bad analogy.
Speaker:It's like giving the homeless guy $20 in the street.
Speaker:And I find out later on he, he used on drugs.
Speaker:I asked him to go buy and fries with it.
Speaker:Well, he took me.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:But you know what, I'd rather err, on the side of giving that guy 20
Speaker:bucks, hoping he'll do the right thing than well, he took bought drugs.
Speaker:It's the same way when you're talking about restoring somebody to ministry or
Speaker:restoring somebody to any area of life.
Speaker:I mean, what I typically deal with much, much more than this subject would be a
Speaker:man and a woman in the church or married and one of the Manhattan affair, but
Speaker:they wanna work out their marriage.
Speaker:Well, I work will work very hard with that person.
Speaker:It half the time, it didn't work out half the time it does, but I'll,
Speaker:we'll give somebody hours and hours and hours of, of, of a restoration
Speaker:to see if that marriage can be.
Speaker:Sometimes it doesn't sometimes I go, I spend a lot of time and energy
Speaker:and that person, and it didn't work.
Speaker:Why'd I do that.
Speaker:Well.
Speaker:That's ministry brother.
Speaker:So I tell you if that makes sense.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Oh, absolutely.
Speaker:Is there.
Speaker:And I know earlier in the podcast, matter of fact, I was gonna, I was gonna take
Speaker:notes, but you were talking about this process of restoration and I, I didn't
Speaker:feel like you had a chance to complete, I mean, Not not to say that you have a
Speaker:formula or something, but I mean, are, are there some steps that, I mean, you've
Speaker:counseled a lot of people over the years you and your wife are extremely effective
Speaker:in teaching families how to raise kids.
Speaker:I, I just wondered if you had any maybe recommendations or some things, maybe like
Speaker:a process by which you try to approach.
Speaker:Helping people in that restoration, whether it's a husband and a wife, or
Speaker:whether it's a person in ministry or whether it's a, a relationship between
Speaker:a mom and dad and a kid, is there, is there something there that, that
Speaker:you found to be extremely helpful?
Speaker:That's a great question.
Speaker:I mean, number one is they have to wanna be helped.
Speaker:You never helped somebody done what we helped.
Speaker:So they have to come with you in a spirit of humility, whether
Speaker:it's a fallen minister or a, like you said, a, a marriage, that's
Speaker:had some terrible problems.
Speaker:They have to come to you and say, we want help, whatever
Speaker:you say, we're gonna follow.
Speaker:That's a, that's a big part of it.
Speaker:Somebody has to be broken to the point of wanting help.
Speaker:Otherwise you're just wasting your time.
Speaker:You're wasting your time there.
Speaker:You, you kind of become that person.
Speaker:Who's you're feeding your pearls to swine if you will.
Speaker:But if they come to you with a broken spirit, God's already in
Speaker:a work in their heart and say, I, I want my marriage restored.
Speaker:I want my ministry restored.
Speaker:I want my relationship with my adult child restored.
Speaker:Well, that's first base.
Speaker:After that, you've gotta have a lot of truthful talks.
Speaker:They've gotta be willing to make some big changes.
Speaker:And even after they have come to you and even after they've been very honest, even
Speaker:after they've received all your direction, instruction, it still may not work.
Speaker:And we have to go into it going, we're gonna do our best.
Speaker:It still may not work.
Speaker:It's part of that process outside of obviously them wanting help
Speaker:and the communication that's gotta take places is part of that also
Speaker:setting definitive boundaries.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Well, it's several things is number one, whatever y'all
Speaker:have done is gonna stop 100%.
Speaker:You never can go backwards again.
Speaker:If a man comes to me and says, man, I have struggled.
Speaker:I, I have a pornography addiction.
Speaker:Well, step one, you've come to admitted it.
Speaker:Now I need to know we're not, we're not going backwards.
Speaker:You're dying to this and then let's try to restore it now over time.
Speaker:Well that person has to be willing to make a lot of change.
Speaker:I mean, everybody wants an easy answer when somebody has really fallen,
Speaker:whether it's a marriage or a ministry it doesn't come back in a day or two.
Speaker:It's gonna take a lot of time.
Speaker:It's gonna take a lot of work.
Speaker:Those people that I've, I've mentioned even vaguely a day, who've been restored a
Speaker:ministry it's been a year or two process.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It it's been a long time of change.
Speaker:It's a radical change of life.
Speaker:That family that, that, that husband or wife who had an affair.
Speaker:and they've either confessed or, or been caught.
Speaker:Typically they've been caught what they need to know.
Speaker:This is gonna be radical changes to your life.
Speaker:If you wanna restore this marriage, it's not gonna be near as easy.
Speaker:There's not appeal for it.
Speaker:There's not a weak fix.
Speaker:It's gonna be radical changes.
Speaker:A lot of hard work.
Speaker:Your life's gonna look different and you may not wanna do that.
Speaker:Well, this goes to, you won't remember this, but I was doing
Speaker:a you camp for you one time.
Speaker:And you said something to me.
Speaker:You won't, you won't even remember this.
Speaker:I remember exactly where I was standing.
Speaker:I remember exactly what city I was in.
Speaker:And I remember standing in the hallway and I don't remember what instigated
Speaker:this conversation, but you made this statement to me and I've I've
Speaker:since made it to a lot of people.
Speaker:And you said this, you said.
Speaker:It takes years to build credibility and reputation, and it takes one
Speaker:decision to ruin all of it, the truth.
Speaker:And I'd never heard anybody say that.
Speaker:And it just so resonated with me that you can be faithful in marriage or ministry
Speaker:or work for years and years and years.
Speaker:And you can have credibility and you can have leverage and you can
Speaker:have respect and you can make one stupid decision and throw it all.
Speaker:And you, you weren't telling me this, trying to make some huge point.
Speaker:I mean, it was just something that you just kind of, for whatever reason,
Speaker:kind of rolled off your tongue in the middle of a, a conversation.
Speaker:And I didn't say anything to you about it at the time, I'm sure you walked away.
Speaker:And if somebody would've told you that you just made a statement to Jay, that he'll
Speaker:never forget, you probably would've said you're crazy, but it was just one of those
Speaker:things that resonated with me that I.
Speaker:Man.
Speaker:I want to, I want to do everything I can.
Speaker:I know I'm not Bulletproof.
Speaker:I know I'm not invincible, but I want to do everything I can to protect the
Speaker:integrity that I'm so trying to build.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:In, in ministry.
Speaker:Well, that statement scares me to death and I'm almost positive.
Speaker:It's not original to me.
Speaker:I believe I first heard that years ago from Steve.
Speaker:Farar the the man that wrote the old point man book and
Speaker:great man speaker just passed.
Speaker:I, I do know this about 10 years ago, I was at a men's conference and I'll never
Speaker:forget this statement from Steve ARA.
Speaker:He stands up and says I don't remember the context, but he said, men, I
Speaker:have a new life purpose statement.
Speaker:He's probably 60, 65 at the time.
Speaker:Been in ministry in a very effective ministry.
Speaker:He said, my life purpose is not to screw up.
Speaker:and I thought simple.
Speaker:I thought, man, that is so true.
Speaker:And he was saying that in.
Speaker:Of many guys, he had known in ministry that had screwed up more whatever.
Speaker:And he just said and he has a ministry at the time.
Speaker:If it passing, you know, to millions of people, books have been read
Speaker:as speaking into all account, he ended up very, very well.
Speaker:And so what we're all saying is is here is that I want to finish the race
Speaker:well, and it is a phenomenal challenge.
Speaker:Well, I devil wants to take us out, brother.
Speaker:I think man, that's a, a good way to finish the podcast today
Speaker:is that God's will it's it's not just for people in ministry.
Speaker:It's for your marriage.
Speaker:It's for your career.
Speaker:It's for your kids.
Speaker:God wants us to finish well.
Speaker:And, you know, it's easy to get focused on what other people are
Speaker:doing or get our eyes onto the folks.
Speaker:And we do expect a lot from our leadership, but at the end of the day,
Speaker:man, the Lord's not gonna let us down.
Speaker:And there's gonna be discouragement as Jerry talked about.
Speaker:There may even be depression that, that may come with it.
Speaker:But.
Speaker:It's like my mentor told me the man that helped disciple me, said,
Speaker:God, always rewards faithfulness.
Speaker:And maybe you're somebody today, listen to podcasts and you're going, golly, man.
Speaker:You know, I, I, I feel so discouraged because I am that
Speaker:person who made mistakes.
Speaker:I'm the person that tripped up.
Speaker:You may even be a person that says.
Speaker:Matter of fact, I'm not there now, but even when I did it, it wasn't accidental.
Speaker:It, it was willful.
Speaker:I was so far away from God that I intentionally was doing wrong.
Speaker:Hey, listen.
Speaker:The moral of the story today is, is there is mercy.
Speaker:There is grace.
Speaker:You've heard Jerry say it, you know, God's will, is always restoration
Speaker:and God's will is healing.
Speaker:And matter of fact, the scripture tells us that God heals the broken
Speaker:hearted and he binds their wounds.
Speaker:And so, you know, you may be a person today that says, man, I've made a lot of
Speaker:mistakes and I'm having struggles in my family, my career, my job, my ministry.
Speaker:Hey, listen, God wants you to finish strong and, and he wants you to
Speaker:lean on in and help him do that.
Speaker:And if you're the person that says, well, Hey, you know what, that's not me.
Speaker:I mean, what you and Jerry are talking about.
Speaker:I've not made those mistakes.
Speaker:Well, praise God for, for that, but also be on guard and recognize that the enemy.
Speaker:Is always prowling around looking for people that, that he can devour Jerry man.
Speaker:It's it's always great.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:When we were gonna, when we were looking at topics that we were gonna do for
Speaker:a podcast, when I saw this one, I'm like, Jerry would be great for this.
Speaker:And man, I appreciate your time.
Speaker:I know you've got a lot going on and for you to slip away from the office and come
Speaker:over here today and join me for this.
Speaker:And quite frankly, I was just thinking a while ago when I was hearing you talk.
Speaker:some of these different steps that you've encouraged people to take.
Speaker:You know, I maybe, maybe you can talk to Mary and we can talk, Mary.
Speaker:I'd love to have you and Mary both come in one day.
Speaker:There's a lot of people that are struggling with raising their kids.
Speaker:And I know you've got.
Speaker:And our motto of information that we could do 10 podcasts on that.
Speaker:But man, it'd be great.
Speaker:If, if you could maybe talk to Mary I'm, I'm sure our listeners would love
Speaker:because many of us are, are, are having struggles with kids and would love to
Speaker:hear some of your wisdom and insight.
Speaker:Obviously I've heard it and It's phenomenal stuff.
Speaker:I mean, every time we know that you're teaching at the church, man, we're
Speaker:taking notes and writing down details.
Speaker:You've got an incredible track record, not only with your own family, but
Speaker:helping so many other families.
Speaker:So hopefully in the future, maybe in this, this winter, when my
Speaker:schedule slows down, maybe we can get married to come in as well.
Speaker:She's better at this than me.
Speaker:I'd be honored to, for us to come back.
Speaker:I'm honored today, cuz we love you and love your ministry.
Speaker:And.
Speaker:And big believers.
Speaker:And what in your ministry through the years and love what you
Speaker:do honor it well ma'am thanks.
Speaker:We love you buddy.
Speaker:And we appreciate you joining us on taboo.
